Peace Out

[KRins]

The whole punishment thing did not affect the quest failure. The punishment was a small knife wound to the shotgun blast of failing the quest. Fact of the matter is, in my mind... manning up and not keeping a bunch of stuff I couldn't get alone/with a group at my level, manning up and acknowledging that sometimes bad things happen in game and NO ONE can control it happening, manning up and finding an RP reason to give it back to him instead of just handing it all over without a word... those are the sorts of things I stand for. The punishment of such things I will NEVER stand for. I could have MERCILESSLY slaughtered a couple of what appeared to be newer characters at least 5 times a piece... but I restrained myself, because its the damn right thing to do. I even reached out to them after the initial PK to offer advice in a very RPed style. You can't on one hand call for us to do the things necessary to expand the pbase... and then not reward/punish us for doing those things.

Regarding the quest... I feel that my choice was a logical one once you take into account all the things I experienced in an 8 room area for an hour plus. It wasn't the right one apparently and that's cool... but I feel it is a poorly written quest, and I doubly feel it was fairly poor of the IMM who was snooping me to tell me fairly demeaning things like "You are obviously doing something wrong." What would have been wrong is getting Zrothum on AIM or anyone else and getting them to hold my hand through the quest. I'm bigger and better than that... and quite frankly I feel that I prove it on a regular basis through my play.

[Twinblades713]

You can get yours and do what you need to to win, or you can do what you did, showing other players that there's more to success than slaughterhousing and OOC. I don't think anyone thinks you are capable of the lower level of play. For that I thank you for enriching the community as long as you did with the char and hope you might decide to stick with it.

[Kyzarius]

The whole punishment thing did not affect the quest failure. The punishment was a small knife wound to the shotgun blast of failing the quest. Fact of the matter is' date=' in my mind... manning up and not keeping a bunch of stuff I couldn't get alone/with a group at my level, manning up and acknowledging that sometimes bad things happen in game and NO ONE can control it happening, manning up and finding an RP reason to give it back to him instead of just handing it all over without a word... those are the sorts of things I stand for. The punishment of such things I will NEVER stand for..[/quote']

I am just amazed.

That kind of behavior should be rewarded not reprimanded.

[f0xx]

I think I've told you my similar experience with such a case in the past - a thief of mine watching how Istendil was fighting 2 people at the same time while a ninja was studying in the meantime. In the end, Istendil got assassinated and fully looted. My lowbie evil thief managed to grab a few things from the corpse, but I felt bad for the way he died and I was inspired by his bravery so I decided to return them. Just like that. Moments later I was pulled by in immortal, obviously reported by one of the two people who saw that I returned that thing to him, and punished for what I did.

I was mad at first place, because I was punished for acting classy, but this is an RP game after all and if you don't have an RP reason to support what you are doing, then you should be punished. Otherwise we'll have goodies giving EQ to their evil OOC friends.

[Mali]

but this is an RP game after all and if you don't have an RP reason to support what you are doing, then you should be punished. Otherwise we'll have goodies giving EQ to their evil OOC friends.

I disagree.

Real RP means you don't know if someone is good, evil, or neutral until their actions are apparent.

I think cookie cutter alignments and enforcing those alignments narrow our rp potential.

What happened here to krins (the punishment) and to you, Foxx, appears to have been an abuse of imm power.

[Kyzarius]

What happened here to krins (the punishment) and to you' date=' Foxx, appears to have been an abuse of imm power.[/quote']

I wouldnt say abuse, more...misuse? good intentions taken to far?

[f0xx]

Real RP means you don't know if someone is good' date=' evil, or neutral until their actions are apparent.[/quote']

Not true because our characters are famous through the lands with their actions, and thus "given" aligns by the simple denizens. We've had this argument before, haven't we? The "How do you know I am evil if we have never met before" argument...

PS. Your actions should always be apparent, otherwise you are not RPing your align correctly, and should be punished too. Man I am starting to sound like an immortal, you should hope I never become one

[Kyzarius]

PS. Your actions should always be apparent, otherwise you are not RPing your align correctly, and should be punished too. Man I am starting to sound like an immortal, you should hope I never become one

There comes a point however, where complete RP enforcement creates not a fun game to play but a pain in the *** that you begin to despise.

When people lose connection, or have client crashes, then get looted...why in the world would a immortal punish someone who was legit about the situation? Why? To preserve RP? What gets preserved in this situation, what is the consequence to allowing a player to just be decent? I do not see one.

It is a game, if enforcing RP prevents someone from just being an honest player in the game...then perhaps punishing them is the wrong thing to do.

[Imoutgoodbye]

PS. Your actions should always be apparent,

That's two-dimensional cookie cutter RP. And what Kyz pointed out.

[Anume]

If someone breaks align or ethos by doing something that would be judged classy oocly, it still remains ooc and a breach of align or ethos.

There won't be any overly harsh punishment, however we will make a char aware that this is not how their character would behave ic.

[f0xx]

There comes a point however, where complete RP enforcement creates not a fun game to play but a pain in the *** that you begin to despise.

When people lose connection, or have client crashes, then get looted...why in the world would a immortal punish someone who was legit about the situation? Why? To preserve RP? What gets preserved in this situation, what is the consequence to allowing a player to just be decent? I do not see one.

It is a game, if enforcing RP prevents someone from just being an honest player in the game...then perhaps punishing them is the wrong thing to do.

You have a point.

[KRins]

Seriously, don't get in a fight on my account. Stuff panned out how it did. I want to say it is VERY discouraging to get demoted, even in a clan, and should be reserved for situation of pure RP breech. I will always pick a course of action that preserves a classy environment, and if that doesn't sit well with the powers that be... that is my issue with them, not something you all get bothered about and risk punishment. I felt that I came up with a good RP reason to return such items as I did that were very applicable to my character. It was disagreed with and I was punished. I was told it was not a reflection on me as a player, but a strictly IC thing. I am a generally angry person and I sometimes cannot separate an IC punishment from being told I am a poor player.

Failing the quest totally sucked. I tried hard to reach out to people knowing full well I had failed the undead quest the first time I was given an opportunity and how badly it burnt me up inside. I either was told the person I was speaking with had no knowledge of what I needed to do or just plain old wouldn't tell me what I was asking. It was not clear to me at the time that the particular event I failed on was even part of the quest and some of the preamble to it was misdirecting to me. I guess that's the difference between wanting to play in the big leagues and being a 10 season veteran with the big club.

[Mali]

If someone breaks align or ethos by doing something that would be judged classy oocly, it still remains ooc and a breach of align or ethos.

There won't be any overly harsh punishment, however we will make a char aware that this is not how their character would behave ic.

You mean "how we want them to behave, based on our personal notion of right and wrong, and our judgement of RP."

The role of immortals should be to facilitate game development, not police character RP. Yet, it is an RP-enforced mud, but the types and nature of that RP should not be mandated.

[Twinblades713]

I don't know what the RP was, but if you RPed a reason to return things and it WAS deemed not good enough, that would be a discouraging dictation of the quality of your RP. If there was NO apparent reason(all IG of course), then IG punishment makes sense. For instance with Oppressant, there were some watchers that I steamrolled, they quickly became outlaws and repeated full looting is heartbreaking. I'd return bags saying that I preferred their gods let me make more trophies of enemies of the law in our ccs. Never got punished for that, I assume because my rp for it was accepted. I might have been upset if i was demoted/whathaveyou for making it a slightly friendlier atmosphere.

[KRins]

I was in the clan for a hardcoded vendetta to this character's cabal. He died from what I assume to have been hunger and thirst. I happen upon the corpse in a casual gathering consumables route. I grab a couple of choice things because who wouldn't? I later receive tells from the character who died, who explains roughly what happened. I RP with him, then decide it is better to return the items for 2 reasons: 1. My character doesn't particularly care to be bogged down in the complaints of others, as he has bigger things to focus on. 2. My character was quite literally concerned that the dead character in question would turn his anger at the situation on the staple constructs that make up the basis of my clan. Playing as an educated character with a focus on the longer term, it was both to my and my clan's benefit to make a sacrifice to protect the now, since in the future I'd do the protecting with a blade.

It seems, in my mind, to be equally acceptable RP to what TB describes for Oppressant. I have plenty of heartbreak and depression in my real life... I honestly don't need more for trying to do things the right way, both interpersonally and regarding quest mechanics.

[Anume]

Re Mali: Align and ethos are not negotiable. They are all clearly defined.

[Mali]

Re: Anume. That is poor rp. Characters, much like people, have complex motivations. Alignment should be seen as a guideline, not a constricting factor, and it should not be hard-coded. Our alignment system is almost a direct copy of the DND system. This is not DND, and removing hard coded alignments would make the game better, more original, and give characters more freedom to explore their motivations.

[Twinblades713]

Though it's a different discussion, align and ethos are negotiable- at char creation. Once you're past that, you've promised as a central factornof your core self that you will be that align/ethos and breaking of this promise should result in outcast/consequences.

[Anume]

If it is your rp to break the align and ethos you have chosen for your character at creation, it will have consequences for your character. These consequences will not always be good.

[f0xx]

Re: Anume. That is poor rp.

Lol Mali, what you call poor RP I simply call a desire for no RP at all.

The align system covers all angles a certain character can possibly want to RP. Is it that hard to pick a combo and RP it properly? Or you want to be good/neutral/evil whenever it suits you?

[Mali]

A human is never all evil, all good, or all neutral. People change based on circumstance and environment. Not only that, but a good man may do evil things, and an evil man may do good things, and such things are often seen as good or evil based on the eye of the beholder.

What I am saying is that hardcoded align and ethos, and even religion, constrict a characters development and confine that character into your poorly constructed box categories of what you think is evil and good.

If it is your rp to break the align and ethos you have chosen for your character at creation, it will have consequences for your character. These consequences will not always be good.

Anume, your RP is excellent and I do not question your devotion to the game. However, I think you are playing mama bird here a bit much. You need to let your chicks fly from the nest and become what they are meant to be, not what you vicariously wish them to be.

[Anume]

Mali, it is simple.

FL has rules.

There are both ic rules and ooc rules.

If you break the first, your character will face consequences, also ic.

If you break the second, you will run afoul with the staff.

This is also nothing new but has been the case for years, since the very start of FL. If we did away with the basic of our game, it will no longer be FL.

[Kyzarius]

so what should he have done?

or, how could he have been fair to the other player while still maintaining his align?

The problem we have here, I think, is an OOC event like a crashed client caused someone to end up in trouble ICly. Why cant we enforce RP, but at the same time encourage a fair environment that makes exceptions in these instances.

[Anume]

He could have not taken anything. Simple

[Mali]

Moving away from my argument against alignment and more towards an analysis of this specific situation:

Imms were wrong to demote him in this case. Why? A good person may give things to an evil character. Think of Les Miserables, when the priest freely gives a set of silver to Jean Val Jean, even though Jean had been caught in the act of stealing them. Likewise, a good knight may seek honorable combat, and not see a problem with giving his opponent basic armors and weapons prior to the battle. An evil person is still a person, and may be deserving of basic wares. Also, the good character may be trying to change the evil character through kindness.

On the flip side, an evil person may give gifts to a good person to manipulate them, bend them to their will, or to uphold a facade of kindness. Or, they may be having a change of heart, or see some longterm benefit to aiding this person (grooming allies for the future).

Clearly this case was an example of immortal abuse through micromanagement of a characters RP, when they obviously did not know the entire situation. I propose the imm in question gets fired from the staff and publicly humiliated.

I challenge the staff to step out of their comfort zone a little for the benefit of the players and the game. Water that does not flow stagnates... FL was founded on change from a stagnating AR. It was never meant to be a static environment, codewise, RP wise, Pk wise, etc.

Enforcing RP in this way shows simplemindedness, and does no justice to the complexities of our characters or the time we have spent in game.