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Non rpers


Warpnow

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Warpnow, for about the umpteenth time, you DO NOT dictate the RP standards in this game. You're way is neither the best way or the only way. Get over yourself and play the game. Or sit there and just think yourself superior to everyone else. Whatever gets you by. But for someone who's every friggin' post is about how improvements to the game that we IMMs make is ruining the MUD because we're "putting limits and dictating RP", it's a shame that you can't take a bit of your own medicine and see how every other post you make smugly tells the rest of the players that they aren't RPing to your satisfaction. Ask yourself this: Who are you to dictate their RP style? Who are you that everyone should RP with you with all their characters?

Simply put:

IMMs dictate RP guidelines, rules and direction of the game to the playerbase. Everything we do is blended to enhance both RP and PK.

You are not an IMM. You dictate none of the above. As a player, I'd personally be about fed up with you telling me that my RP sucks because you say so.

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FL isn't really anymore an enforced rp mud. Its a mud which has rules in place that say you can't talk about RL, but plent of people still talk -like- they're in RL.

As the one thing Chayesh agreed with me on, Rp is not just not going OOC. Rp is something more.

So, if you want to say you enforce rp, you have to say your punish people who lack that very big distinction, which I haven't seen happening very often lately.

Not much for the "bragging" game and I hold -very- different things in priority than you do. My favorite chars never made a cabal, never got personal titles, weren't qclasses...actually I have never even sent a qclass app, ever, in my 5 years of playing here. I just don't think I'd enjoy playing one of those beasts. As far as owner only items, though, I have had dozens. Some time I will sit down and count my chars with owner onlies, right now, offhand, I can count over 15, and I have only gotten 2 of them for descs. Admittedly, I got most of my owner only items in 2.0 from direct imm interaction, when it was alot easier.

My point is FL has come to a point where Pk has taken dominance over RP. It really has. People get into a cabal if they have pk and no rp alot easier than if they have rp and no pk. People get qraces based, in large part, off their pk actions, rather than their rp.

Pk and Rp go in hand in hand in a truly "rp enforced" mud, and instances to try and seperate them, IMHO, should be punished.

People think when I say Rp I mean, "Oh, was your mommy mean to you?" but they totally misunderstand me. Rp is everything you do, its every decision you make. Its having and showing the reasons behind your actions, even if in minute or trivial ways. Hinting at the past of your character if you don't want to push it on other people.

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I hold -very- different things in priority than you do. My favorite chars never made a cabal' date=' never got personal titles, weren't qclasses...[/quote']

I never stated those were my priorites, the reason for stating them is because you don't get those rewards without going above the garbage rp you accuse my style of.

People think when I say Rp I mean' date=' "Oh, was your mommy mean to you?" but they totally misunderstand me. Rp is everything you do, its every decision you make. Its having and showing the reasons behind your actions, even if in minute or trivial ways. Hinting at the past of your character if you don't want to push it on other people.[/quote']

And I don't see anyone saying this at all.

WC

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People are scared of you guys. Every time someone tries to talk about what they think is wrong with the mud, or gives their opinion on something...its called a flame, and generally the post is locked or deleted.

Talked with a lot of people over aim before I posted, and you know what? I found very little disagreement. Most of the people who I know that have been here since 1.0 don't think the rp standard of the game now is up to par. Too many players are coming to power in cabals...as qraces and classes, and otherwise, who have virtually no rp power or skill, but moreso, they just don't want to rp.

I respect you guys as imms, and think you've done a great number of great things, but I am very surprised you don't see the deteriorating rp value of the game, when its so amazingly evident to me and a lot of other people who I know aren't posting because they don't want to be criticized or put down/insulted.

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People are scared of you guys. Every time someone tries to talk about what they think is wrong with the mud, or gives their opinion on something...its called a flame, and generally the post is locked or deleted.

I have to disagree, and this is just my view, but it's not what's been brought up in these types of threads that has people flamed, but the way inwhich they do it. What is vital to a debate is showing a willingness to consider the opposing view, a willingness to look at the bigger picture. Again, don't mean this to come off wrong but from looking at the thread, I have to agree with WC. Everybody has their own perspective of roleplay and what it is, and their own view on what is good. I don't want to sound negative or anything, but I think this post is a prime example, in that because you're not seeing the roleplay or the emotes from characters, you don't like it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get.

People think when I say Rp I mean' date=' "Oh, was your mommy mean to you?" but they totally misunderstand me. Rp is everything you do, its every decision you make. Its having and showing the reasons behind your actions, even if in minute or trivial ways. Hinting at the past of your character if you don't want to push it on other people.[/quote']

How is that not achievable through says and actions? I posted, even before WC/Psycho posted, that a character's RP shouldn't be judged on wether they use emotes or not, and I still think that. People have proven time and time again that you don't need emotes to have good RP. And I still do not see this lack of RP that you speak about, I really honestly don't. I don't see tons of people using emotes all the time, but I see tons of good RP. Again, we all RP in our own ways, and to try an impose one's a way upon another is not the way forward.

Dey

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I haven't insulted or put down anyone except the smug attitude that you post with in telling everyone who plays the game that they need to RP to your satisfaction or they aren't doing it correctly. Especially all the higher end people who do BOTH (PK&RP since they can't be separated) well, i.e. cabal leadership and the questors.

Let's examine this fallacy of yours:

Let's start with Tribunal, since everyone bitches about their lack of RP.

No mortal leader but the most creative IMM interaction in a while with Prax. Some of you are still trying to figure out how to talk to him. Guess he can't RP. Then you have elders of Martineius (nope, no RP there :rolleyes: ), Branor (whose only lack of RP is that he should be dead by now) and Carroin I believe.

Over at Knight, you have Crisnae (who is stretching his RP so far he's been gimped for it as a healer).

Nexus has Sirican, Covus....yeah, I'm sure they don't RP.:rolleyes:

Syndicate, hello, Messalantha? Warmaster, Senrail?

I guess the cabals are REALLY in need of some leaders who can RP. :rolleyes: Of course, they blend the RP and PK together properly and that's probably why they are on nearly everyone's monthly poll as the top in their classes and cabals.

And as you've never had a qrace or qclass, you'd have no idea what is and isn't required to get one, other that what we IMMs have posted. I think if you look over our posts, you'll find in some cases, it's over 60-70% RP.

You're now posting about things for which you have no reference base and it's starting to get a bit absurd.

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I am not new to FL, but I have only played steadily since I made Wrail. I don't even know where many of the area's are or how to get to them. But from my experiences so far, I think the lack of the role play isn't the problem. I think it's more of people like you, Warpnow, that say role play should be a certain way. Many people are lazy and don't like to spend the extra time to do emotes, smotes, etc... That doesn't change the fact that their role play is poor or is not poor. I was always told on Wrail that I had crap role play, because I chose not to role play with certain people who felt that I should role play with 'everyone'. Which is ludicrous. You make your character, you role play him how you want to, you do emotes, smotes, etc... as you wish to do them. You don't sit here and judge and tell other people how to role play, or that their role play is lacking.

I do use emotes from time to time, because I feel that sometimes I cannot get my feelings/point across just using the say command. That doesn't mean that Joe Blow the warrior has to do emotes along with me. And if he doesn't, I don't think he is lacking role play, just lazy. No problem with that. People here seem to have the assumption that role play is craming their "Role play" down another characters throat. If you approach a player, and he is silent pk'er as they are called, try approaching him in a way that might interest him into talking. Not, "Why did you attack me?" "Why did you kill me?" because who wants to explain that?

You just want them to come up with some fancy *** answer when the real reason is, "You're a knight, I'm a Nexus, we're enemies. You had to die." I am not trying to bag on you, and to be honest, I don't like Chayesh, but he's right, you are just trying to force the way you want the things in this mud upon everyone else. Your opinion is ok, but the way you go about it is all wrong. As if we HAVE to do it your way, or the mud is total ****. Not saying you said that, but that's the way you're coming off.

As always, this is only my opinion, I cannot speak for others, but they seem to be on the same page.

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Everyone has their own style. Some people may not be as wordy as others, but very few people break the rules, if any.

Personally, I try to look at the mud like an ongoing novel. I can throw my little lines of prose in at any moment, and I'd like them to look good and decent. I do it more for character definition than for showing off. If you're not as zealous about character development, but can still stay in character, you're doing fine.

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I didn't want to weigh in on this again, but I got misunderstood a bit, so I thought I'd clarify.

It's hard to be involved in hardcore RP plots without having PK credibility' date=' that's my trouble. While you can get into cabals (even non-Herald) without being a good PKer, it really takes the wind out of your RP sails to be killed semi-constantly.[/quote']

The above does not mean that I believe PK/RP are separate. The above does not mean I want PK/RP to be separate. Please indulge me while I explain.

This is a PK/RP mud, this is an RP/PK mud. It always has been, it always will be. Many people believe (falsely IMHO) that this gives rise to only two facts.

A) RP is enforced.

B) PK is allowed.

These two ideas developed because of two situations among players. The first is that some players see straight RP as boring. The second is that other players see PK as scary. Therefore they see that you must RP, and you can PK (but don't have to {adventurer}).

Both of those facts (A and B) are absolutely true, but not the exclusion of certain other ideas. In my view (and I welcome disagreement from IMMs on this concept), a PK/RP mud is one in which every action or word a character chooses to do/say, by which to act out the character they created, must be in agreement with the character. This gives a very wide range of allowable actions, simply because the player him/herself chooses the boundaries. Some boundaries you choose are IG enforced by IMMs. Goods don't kill goods. Neutrals aren't overly agressive. Et al.

However, there is another aspect of an RP/PK. The IMMs decided long, long ago that an extremely wealthy vein of RP is open to the players. A player (through his character) can choose to kill another player's character. If every action you take must be good RP (defined as an action your character would take), then all PK is by default RP.

With this in mind, you can begin to understand our disagreement with you, Warpnow. *mote,say,tell,note are all aspects of RP, but it doesn't end there and never will. So, a full-loot during a tea party by a silent killer doesn't mean he's a bad RPer. However, if you don't roll with the punches and adjust your RP to a new situation, it does mean you are. I am not saying bad PKers are bad RPers. I will admit (and the IMMs can attest) that I am below average in the PK arena. But I'm trying, because I've come to realize that in a world where you can be killed at any time, you simply cannot (tranquility excepted) believably RP a character who simply chats/emotes all the time and makes no in game attempt to keep those baddies from stomping his guts out.

Would I like it if someone who kills me twice in 20 minutes (post-40) doesn't talk to me? Absolutely not. Is it more fun sometimes if enemies RP before/after fighting? Yes. But every PK is an extension of the character's RP, regardless of your agreement/disagreement with their character's choices.

Every time someone tries to talk about what they think is wrong with the mud' date=' or gives their opinion on something...its called a flame, and generally the post is locked or deleted.[/quote']

I cannot disagree more with your statement here. By this point, everyone should know the boundaries of proper forumnal behavior. Everyone should know the difference between a disagreement and a flame. But not everyone has sufficient self-control to manage this separation. As a result, the moderators are forced to step in and remove frequent offenders, and lock posts. However, to say that every disagreeing post and poster is locked/banned is almost a flame in itself.

There's a reason the WCs, brsingrs, Warpnows (to the best of my knowledge), and even Toms of the forum haven't been banned. It's because they know how to control their actions, and disagree civilly. I use that example not to toot my own horn, but because it was a thread I happened to know of which disagreed with recent-months' most controversial topic, went on for some time, and is unlocked to this day.

As for these AIM desperados who agree with you (Warpnow; man I wish this was a pmote), I would love for them to come to this thread, read this post, and let me know if they disagree with anything I've said. That goes for everyone, if you think I'm out of line with anything I've stated about the PK/RP concept, please don't hesitate to ask. And if what you say disagrees with IMMs, is civil, and gets you banned, my next/last post'll be the names of all my characters, and that's a promise.

Shalom.

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Would I like it if someone who kills me twice in 20 minutes (post-40) doesn't talk to me? Absolutely not.

That is what it comes down to. What is constructive for the mud. Silent pk is not constructive to the mud, and its happening more and more every day. I would say the vast majority of pk I've experienced in 3.0 was silent.

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Warpnow, your view is that PK is not as beneficial as non-violent RP. But if you really read my post, you'd see that PK is a big, big part of RP. Big.

I would argue that silent PK is constructive to the mud, by teaching some of its more hotheaded players a bit of patience. I've been there in the past, with every close-to-pinn I've had, and haven't managed to control my irritation beyond the initial deletion urge.

You'll see even silent PK as valid RP and all valid RP is an RP opportunity, Warpnow. There is no spoon.

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I was going to add something, but Tom said it well. I will ask why you drew out part of Tom's post, Warp, into a quote without going on to see that the rest of that very same paragraph address silent pk. "Silent pk," I don't like saying that. Like it's some sort of buzzword.

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PK is monitored, to ensure that a character's PK is in line with his RP. Aggro Healers get outcasted, Neutrals get evil'd, etc. That's really all the monitoring necessary. If PK becomes overly monitored:

A) You add more work to a Warpnow admittedly overtaxed staff.

1) If they were going to add you, they would've. I think your respective philosophies are too different. Ain't gonna happen.

B)

My point is FL has come to a point where Pk has taken dominance over RP.

1)Impossible, because PK will always simply be a subset of RP. However,

2)Overly monitoring PK will bog it down far too long. My silent assassin gets tsked at, and I decide to delete and go somewhere less teaparty. And since no players have voiced agreement with you, there goes the pbase.

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However' date=' I think pk has to be monitored very closely. That's where the disagreement is.[/quote']

But it's quite clear how the PK is in this MUD. Full lootings all the time are perfectly legal. Multi-killing is perfectly legal (to some degree). What people percieve as 'trash' is mostly still perfectly legal. Sure, most people would prefer people to have some degree of class or whatever, but it's just a game at the end of the day. If someone does something that is within the rules, you might frown upon it, and say "Dude have some class and don't be trash." but nobody has to have class. It's a game, and we all play it for our own reasons. If someone is happy sticking by the rules, and displaying RP in the MUD (which, just because they silent-PK doesn't mean they don't RP) what does it matter if they are 'trash' or not?

Dey

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Look at FL's page on TMS. It states Restricted PlayerKilling.

Full lootings all the time are perfectly legal. Multi-killing is perfectly legal (to some degree). What people percieve as 'trash' is mostly still perfectly legal.

Here you describe exactly why it is not restricted. It's open.

..but it's just a game at the end of the day.

And this is where all arguments are void. Heh..

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No two people are the same. Some people have fun player killing, some have fun sitting around role playing. Either way, you have to type a lot. I think a lot of it depends on how much someone feels he or she is actually in the world.

For instance, if I looked at everyone's name as if they were just a line of text in my client window, I wouldn't have a problem with myself to roll up an evil and kill them without repercussions. Because I'm evil, all I have to do to RP is never say, social, or emote a thing, and kill as often as possible. My PK will vouch for my RP ability, correct? And if I'm ever transferred, I know how to talk, if need be.

On the other hand, if I applied my full imagination to the world and went in and bio'ed everyone I came across so that I could pretend that that person or thing was actually in my sight, I might begin to establish feelings of responsibility and awe. We know what makes us feel guilty. Murder is bad. Theft is bad. That morality carries into FL, regardless of its underlying story.

Non-PKers, in my mind, do a lot of people a favor by saving them the troubles of frustrating full-loots, etc. I think it's an act general kindness and respect for the other people playing, allowing them to have fun and ignore you, or RP with you, or whatever. I mean, when was the last time you cheered “SWEET!” when someone assassinated you and sacrificed all your high-level armor?

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Agreed, I suppose.

I mean' date=' when was the last time you cheered “SWEET!” when someone assassinated you and sacrificed all your high-level armor?[/quote']

Yesterday. I'm just as excited when I PK somebody as when they PK me.

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