Dwarf vs Duergar

[f0xx]

I've always been wondering why dwarves have better stats than duergars. But what struck me the other day is that dwarves have smaller XP penalty than duergars too:

Duergar: Str: 21 Int: 17 Wis: 20 Dex: 20 Con: 22 (100 in total) 300 XP penalty

Dwarf: Str: 21 Int: 18 Wis: 21 Dex: 18 Con: 25 (103 in total) 275 XP penalty

:confused:

[Erana]

Re EXP: Evil races will typically have greater exp pens than their good counterparts as it is more acceptable for evil races to take advantage of rank gaps, especially at pinn. EXP pen is judged not only on the raw power of the race, but to a lesser amount the possible applications of that power. 25 exp is an insignificant difference.

Re stats: We are talking about dwarf balance right now.

[f0xx]

as it is more acceptable for evil races to take advantage of rank gaps' date=' especially at pinn.[/quote']

Ah, I didn't really look at it from this angle... understandable then.

[Mister E]

Duegar also have a further possible recall point, and I am unsure if dwarves can dig like their evil cousins.

re: Dwarf balancing: Yay!

[Imoutgoodbye]

Soooo....how about them h-elf clerics?

[Trick]

Don't dwarves get a bonus to axe in the majority of other games? Not saying it should be put into FL, but doesn't dwarf lore kind of show this?

[Mindflayer]

In my opinion, balance out the communer classes by removing dwarf/duergar from the racial selection. They have too many pros going for them.

[Imoutgoodbye]

In my opinion' date=' balance out the communer classes by removing dwarf/duergar from the racial selection. They have too many pros going for them.[/quote']

You're lying! She made you say that! :eek:

[Mindflayer]

Evil races will typically have greater exp pens than their good counterparts as it is more acceptable for evil races to take advantage of rank gaps' date=' especially at pinn.[/quote']

I disagree with this logic and here's why. Plain and simple, FL encourages a PK environment. I feel exp penalities should ONLY be coded mechanics used to balance racial perks below level 50, not made to reflect alignment, ethos or playing style.

[Erana]

Alignment and playing style both have a great effect on PK, and so of course they would be considered in exp pens. Both of which I'd lump under race 'perks' or 'flaws' in one way or another anyways.

[Mindflayer]

I agree to disagree. Playing style is alignment, ethos governed. Who says a good aligned dwarf blademaster would be any less aggressive against evils than a duergar blademaster against good aligned characters? It doesn't add up. I think it's poor form to favor aggressive PK for evils and not for goods.

[Twinblades713]

This mud is RP enforced, but it is slowly becoming less RP 'free'. It is one of my biggest points of dismay. We are coding these things to create an easier environment for only the cookie cutter RP aligns?

I played an Avatar Psionicist, and that guy would beat the **** out of a puppy if it had an evil thought. Coding penalties like these for a good does not force, but encourages cookie cutter, peaceful goodies. Goods already have coded penalties for killing other goods, and IG penalties for killing neutrals without defined reasons. I believe Crusaders are an example of why this doesn't make sense, if I can say that without giving out Qinfo. Crusaders are supposed to be aggressive. Just because they are a qclass doesn't exempt them from the ups and downs of their align...

Now, I'm not making the point that this is ruins the game, it's just an xp pen... hardly game ending... but it leads down a path that I don't think even needs be given a first look.

[Mister E]

Cookie cutter RP is very important and it is not a bad thing. In the world of FL there needs to be stereotypes and racial behaviors, it is what makes it more realistic. This does not stop people from having unique RP, it can even be taken as far as outcasting without ever even being a negative experience.

It was not long ago that the playerbase asked for more detailed racial help files to give new and old players alike some sort of basis for understanding the individual races, their unique lifestyles, and their general feelings towards each other.

I don't think factoring in the average race behavior to the exp penalty is at all wrong and nor do I think the game is any more or less "RP free" that it has ever been in the last 7 years at least.

[Twinblades713]

Well like I said, I don't think the Imms are '****ing up' or anything. I just think cookie cutter RP is already available to anyone with a day of experience here. I mean, I've played a cookie cutter RP background and focused on making RP the main point and the character was very well taken. I just don't think it should be, for lack of any better term, 'punished' <--This word taken incredibly lightly, for trying to be unique.

"You can be good, but if you wish to be aggressive, it will be harder." (via xp penalty and pk range) I think this should be equal and support multiple routes of good RP, not "allowing all routes, but mechanically suggesting one over the rest, that route being a peaceful good."

[Imoutgoodbye]

To break it down a little more simply:

Ogre Warriors.

Good.

Evil.

Neutral.

You will see where it has, at its most basic, fit into the code. A strong race. A strong combination. Each align determining equipment and build variations based on align restrictions.

I present this as nothing more than something more basic and with greater depth and less shallow breadth to be considered than deurgar/dwarf.

[Twinblades713]

I present this as nothing more than something more basic and with greater depth and less shallow breadth to be considered than deurgar/dwarf.

... wtf?

Didn't you actually the whole thing?

[Imoutgoodbye]

Yes, I read the whole thing. I presented something of equal xp penalty, but that are of different aligns (RP differences). I think the ideas previously presented need to be dug deeper into if the arguments are to be made across a greater swath.

I apologize for being vague, but I'm a little busy with academic studies and wish to let the rest of you pull the weight.

[jibber]

I agree to disagree. Playing style is alignment' date=' ethos governed. Who says a good aligned dwarf blademaster would be any less aggressive against evils than a duergar blademaster against good aligned characters? It doesn't add up. I think it's poor form to favor aggressive PK for evils and not for goods.[/quote']

Where's the LIKE button?

[Erana]

Of course you will have mechanics that will support RP and PK concepts in the game.

Goods tend to get defensive stuff in both EQ and spells. Does this limit their RP to be aggressive, not so much, but it does limit their ability to be aggressive, which is quite a good thing.

Goods can be aggressive towards certain groups. If they were equally aggressive against other goods or neutrals, they wouldn't be 'good' in the first place. This also makes sense. What separates the neutral and good dwarf blademaster? It really is just the PK and RP restrictions we put on them. Different eq, cabals, people they can fight, and so forth. Also a fundamental part of the game.

Don't think this limits RP at all. You can decide your RP then choose your combo...don't need to choose a different combo then force it into a strange RP. If you do, which you are free to try, of course that won't be so easy. Why would you play a paladin with plans to go neutral? And if you did that, do you really expect it to be free of consequences, both in RP and PK?

You could argue, but yeah, it is my RP as a lawful to not really be lawful. Well, then in that case, why are you lawful?

[Mister E]

I agree to disagree. Playing style is alignment' date=' ethos governed. Who says a good aligned dwarf blademaster would be any less aggressive against evils than a duergar blademaster against good aligned characters? It doesn't add up. I think it's poor form to favor aggressive PK for evils and not for goods.[/quote']

Where's the LIKE button?

Nobody ever said goods HAVE to be less aggressive, it was simply stated that as a part of exp penalty balancing alignment was a factor. On average evils are the most aggressive and that is ok, it is not and does not have to be the norm. A very aggressive good or neutral who acts appropriately (aka good RP) will never get punished.

It also works the other way around, certain evil races are known for their cruelty and deceit and they should and would be outcasted for being kind and compassionate as fast as a healer is outcasted for pking aggressively. That is not hindering peoples RP it is enforcing the RP of the game above all else.

[Mindflayer]

Nobody ever said goods HAVE to be less aggressive, it was simply stated that as a part of exp penalty balancing alignment was a factor. On average evils are the most aggressive and that is ok, it is not and does not have to be the norm. A very aggressive good or neutral who acts appropriately (aka good RP) will never get punished.

It also works the other way around, certain evil races are known for their cruelty and deceit and they should and would be outcasted for being kind and compassionate as fast as a healer is outcasted for pking aggressively. That is not hindering peoples RP it is enforcing the RP of the game above all else.

MisterE, I disagree with an experience penalty being hardcoded into my character based on an assumption of PK style.

[KRins]

MisterE' date=' I disagree with an experience penalty being hardcoded into my character based on an assumption of PK style.[/quote']

Because he will eat your face with a half-elf... doesn't even need a class, just the race. He doesn't even need a race... he kills with sheer presence.

IDK... I feel like magic resist races should have HEFTY penalties. I can't think of a finer perk to a race other than "Hey...we reject your reality as a caster, and assert our own".

[Mindflayer]

Because he will eat your face with a half-elf... doesn't even need a class, just the race. He doesn't even need a race... he kills with sheer presence.

IDK... I feel like magic resist races should have HEFTY penalties. I can't think of a finer perk to a race other than "Hey...we reject your reality as a caster, and assert our own".

Arthion did alright. Lost interest with some Knight issues (code wise) concerning Praetorian Monks but I digress.

I agree dwarf/duergar should have a hefty penalty due to their coded -25 save vs spell racial bonus, high str and con, and lovely hps. Just pick a blademaster/cleric/healer so you can negate your size weakness.

[f0xx]

I don't think it's -25.

[Mindflayer]

-15 then