My Brothers and Sisters of Aabahran!

[Kyzarius]

So, how do you feel about moving beyond that, of having the option opened to you? It would certainly open up a few venues for dealing with an Inductee of a hard coded vendetta'd cabal.

It also would open the possibility of player reformed/player driven cabal stories. Eventually, with enough of the right kind of characters taking hold of these cabals, we might see their bylaws changed to an extent. I'm just setting this out as a possible scenario, not a definitive one.

It's difficult sometimes to swallow the hard-coded RP of a cabal into the unique characters we sometimes try to align with the cabal. Most of us have been here long enough that we know what Savants are supposed to do. But not all of the PB wants to keep setting up their cabal options through their RP. Or, I should say, have their RP affected to the extent it dictates the who, how, what, when, where, and why of the PK.

I'm exhausted (4 hours of sleep), but it's refreshing to the mind to come and work on a project we're all so passionate about.

Your line of questioning completly misses the poiont of my post. I have tried, and been penalized in game for doing what is being suggested.

Valek, do a search for my name, read my old posts in general about this same thing. I have sang your song. Though now that I am good at pvp, I have a different opinion about what is fun in the game.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I'm failing to understand the line of reasoning. I know you've discussed this before. You've brought up the penalization, which is why I've asked for your thoughts on "what if in the future".

But if you like it the way it is, that's okay. I just wanted to pry out a little more information. Thank you.

[Kyzarius]

I'm failing to understand the line of reasoning. I know you've discussed this before. You've brought up the penalization, which is why I've asked for your thoughts on "what if in the future".

But if you like it the way it is, that's okay. I just wanted to pry out a little more information. Thank you.

I do not neccesarily believe your ideas will work. I used to agree, but now I think it dumbs the game down to much. PVP should not be avoided by demanding people change their playstyle.

I enjoy the fact that in FL, you cannot make wild RP claims (being a master magi, a warlord, an assasin) unless you can actually back it up with the skill.

[The Forsaken]

Anytime I have even remotly left PK to the aside and focused on RP with a vendetta enemy' date=' I have been penalized 250 cp.[/quote']

Hahah! I'm with you. I've deviated to RP and play my toon's role and have been,

1. Kicked out of Cabals

2. Demoted to Inductee

3. Penalized CPs

But hey, guess what, did I quit? Nah, that's too easy. I'll tell you my favorite in-game quote to use and have actually seen other people use it now when someone complains about being killed IG. 'You should have been a Herald then'

[Erana]

If your RP is to go against what your cabal IMM specifically asks combined with disrespectful RP, expect to be demoted often.

This goes for anybody in any cabal. Demotions (from me) usually are a result of completely breaking cabal ethos. Cabal pens are usually more for not following normal rules or lesser breaches.

You won't get demoted/cabal pen for RPing with your enemy...I've never seen that happen from any IMM so far. You will get it for avoiding them however.

[jibber]

Hahah! I'm with you. I've deviated to RP and play my toon's role and have been,

1. Kicked out of Cabals

2. Demoted to Inductee

3. Penalized CPs

But hey, guess what, did I quit? Nah, that's too easy. I'll tell you my favorite in-game quote to use and have actually seen other people use it now when someone complains about being killed IG. 'You should have been a Herald then'

I laughed at this post as a whole, considering I'm pretty certain now as to who you play. =))

[The Forsaken]

Yeah...I'm Torash.

But anyways, that goes back much farther than current toons.

AGAIN, that is the bad side of it. I have also recieved rewards for going the RP route rather than PK. And of course, even the demotions, being booted from the cabal, penalized CPs, plays a role IN RP. However, sometimes I think that it's more pushed upon you by IMMs unless that was the route you were going.

RE: Erana et al, I am in no way complaining. I know exactally how things work. I merely found Kyz's post funny.

[jibber]

The best time I've ever had with a character began with me getting booted from Knight. I eventually got L in Herald, but, when people say RP > PK or PK > RP they're completely wrong.

RP = PK which = FL. We should always be FL'ing, people.

[Kyzarius]

If your RP is to go against what your cabal IMM specifically asks combined with disrespectful RP, expect to be demoted often.

This goes for anybody in any cabal. Demotions (from me) usually are a result of completely breaking cabal ethos. Cabal pens are usually more for not following normal rules or lesser breaches.

You won't get demoted/cabal pen for RPing with your enemy...I've never seen that happen from any IMM so far. You will get it for avoiding them however.

So if you try tp 'RP' with the freedom expected and asked for by Valek then you are penalized.

Erana, define "avoiding" since this is what we are told when we "rp" with enemies. We are told we are "avoiding pk". Again here is the crux of the issue as well, they disrepect you? ICLY? so you....demote? kick out? Isnt the point to encourage outside the box RP, yet whenever someone creativly interprets things they get slapped for it.

See your last sentence itself is VERY confusing. Here are a few scenarios.

scneario 1

A warmaster and a Savant. They have been fighitng for ages. The Savant manages to convince the warmaster to sit and converse. They meet, they speak some, then they both get penalized. The WM was demoted, the savant paid 500cp. Why? for "avoiding pk". The imm for Savant was Anithraril at the time, not sure who the WM imm was.

scenario 2

Savant Fae invoker, Rp's with their own cabal mates. For weeks, months, she gets promoted to E. Her Rp is good aligned, but she doesnt "hate" evils. Her intentions are to correct their actions using the powers of time, but to learn from them (solid E savant RP) so as to not be lost herself. Result? Outcasting, and removal of the sanctuary spell, for "associating with evils"

scenario 3

drow cleric syndicate, a non cabaled neutral warrior is about who is bountied. The hunter finds the warrior, but has collected that particular warrior at least 5 times in the last few days. So the hunter elects to blackmail, chat with, then extort the warrior for aid in gaining equipment (this is RP to avoid pkilling a weaker foe repeatedly). The result? You geussed it..I was demoted. Even though I had blackmailed him for a huge bit of coin, and made him help me get armor i couldnt get alone. .

All three of these actually happened to me. I never deleted or anything, though it has redefined overtime what I believe is possible in the game. Yes you can create all kinds of things, events, scenarios, if you have the patient of a saint and 6 months + to devote to the same project. You cant, however, try to go "off-road" go against vendettas or EVER challenge your imm icly...or you will just get penalized.

[jibber]

Were all of those scenarios prior to this Administration?

[Kyzarius]

Were all of those scenarios prior to this Administration?

err ehh...hard to say. I havent tried anything like this in recent months. Sepahoona did have tons of creative freedom, though I always kept it within the road-map of rules defined by cabal, ethos, align, race, class.

Keep i mind too, my tone is one of relative indifference. This is just how it seems to be, good? bad? I am not judging.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I'm just going to point out I'm not asking people be required to forego the immediate PK. I'm just saying it's a more viable alternative with samag's cabal ethos reward system. I am asking for a loosening of the current structures, an experiment slightly different than player run cabals, but ones in which the cabal members strive to appease the cabal Immortal through their own unique individuality instead of being teased into a corner by simplistic cabal demands. Hmmm...my wording is off. I do apologize for this now, but don't have time to change it. Not trying to make the clan/cabal experience heretical or cult like, but it begins to feel two-dimensional after a while.

[samag08]

Just to be clear. I am in no way advocating avoiding pk in cabals. If you are not "actively" rping with the opposition you should be pking them and vice versa. Just as much time and attention should be put into the rp. One line or two here and there is certainly not what I had in mind.

[Anume]

It is always a matter where you draw the line as cabal Imm. You can't see everything, so mistakes can happen.

I am in no way certain what exactly happened in Kyz's scenarios, however:

What I could see is people getting penalized if they break ethos or align, aka. a good actively helping an evil, that is just not what a good should do.

As to ignoring cabal wf, I've snooped people from both sides for 45 minutes real time and they were not rping. One side was on a eq trip, the other just idled around. OF COURSE they will both get a penalty for ignoring cabal duties in this scenario. This is most probably not the one scenario Kyz talked about, just an example.

Wm is also a very militaristic organisation. I'd expect major trouble if you were found "fraternizing with the enemy". That too, is rp.

As to syndicates, they are not allowed to group with someone with a bounty UNLESS THEY PLAN TO TRICK THEM AND TO COLLECT THEM WHEN WEAKENED. If they do, expect trouble to come your way, same as breaking other cabal rules. We've implemented a mechanism not long ago that will make bountying someone again and again in very short period not possible. Apart from that, only the syndicate cabal IMM can make exceptions to people getting collected (or if he allows this, his mortal Elders / Leaders). They may do this for rp reasons. It is not a common thug's place however to make such decisions (from a rp pov ).

[Twinblades713]

I'm not picking apart your post, Anume... but I've both played and interacted with Syndicates that can be bought off for a period of time... would that not count? If you paid a Syndi 50/100/150k not to collect your bounty for a period of like a week, would he get penalized for grouping with you for an eq trip?

[Deykari]

I'm not picking apart your post' date=' Anume... but I've both played and interacted with Syndicates that can be bought off for a period of time... would that not count? If you paid a Syndi 50/100/150k not to collect your bounty for a period of like a week, would he get penalized for grouping with you for an eq trip?[/quote']

I was told this was never an option with Chakii. Buying me out (temporarily) was a case of them placing a bounty on someone else and me making a decision as to which bounty I would want to collect, and if I chose my newest target, then they've got some time.

Dey

[Anume]

As Dey said. Exceptions to this can only be made for rp reasons by the syndicate Imm.

[Twinblades713]

I remember Koortu had several people who would pay him off regularly... under Brehan's rule. I never had an issue. Maybe I was getting luckily unseen? I dunno, haha. Wasn't trying to be sneaky about it.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I'm joining Nexus in December!

[Tantangel]

I actually like the idea Samag put out. It offers very practical RL situations to a very harsh Fantasy world at times.

Valek, thanks for the reply, but I was curious as to your reply. It made it quite logical and giving your own opinion and the likes will more than likely help get your point across rather than giving out bland statements with nothing to base it off of. Although I am, or was, a person who was primarily focused on PK to get better over time I have found that RP is much more preferable.

To get more people I still say allow postings of reviews on TMS again. There will always be the bad apple who says it sucks because of this admin, but quite frankly I think it's because they wanted Imm and when they didn't get it they started crying.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I actually like the idea Samag put out. It offers very practical RL situations to a very harsh Fantasy world at times.

Valek, thanks for the reply, but I was curious as to your reply. It made it quite logical and giving your own opinion and the likes will more than likely help get your point across rather than giving out bland statements with nothing to base it off of.

I LOVE to use my personal frame of reference to reinforce my ideas. However, I will again state that using my own frame of reference lends itself to others discrediting my ethos through attempting to point that I have a bias through which I filter all my thoughts. Thus, it seems logical to me to step away from my own personal experiences as much as I can to make myself heard AND shield myself from my critics.

I thank you for the binary outlook, though. It's always good to see both sides of a coin. Or all sides of the d20, as I prefer.

[Volgathras]

Speaking personally, I regard very highly those individuals in my organization who attempt to further the goals of the Nexus in ways other than PK - but then, I specifically took the cabal to get it away from a more 'hack-and-slash' feel (sorry to those of you who prefered that). As long as your RP is a.) helping the cabal, b.) not aiding the enemy and c.) in line with my rulings then you're free to do as you like. In fact, currently there's a character in nexus who flat out told me he was going to go against my commands. While this certainly puts him on my radar, he has leeway to perform before employ my spiked boots of ***-kicking.

As for punishments arising from disrespecting an imm; This has been discussed before. Speaking with an imm in game is speaking to a superior - if, for instance, you went to work and told your boss to do one, you can expect at the very least a demotion. That's an extreme, but taken to less polarized extend if your boss tells you 'clean table 5' and you say 'No, actually, I'm going to wipe down the service station,' you can't expect your boss to be very pleased.

You may disagree, and you're perfectly allowed to do so, but remember that HOW you disagree will influence the reaction of the person in question. I.e. I will never punish someone who says 'Volgathras, I don't agree that we should eat the faeries, we should play paddy-cake instead.' However, if someone says 'I'm not eating faeries. Faeries aren't worth my time,' you'll get a talking to. Why? Because that's directly going against an order, not showing the proper respect to your organizations leader, and not offering an alternative.

A lot of issues arise from the fact that people have difficulties separating an RP judgment from an OOC judgmenet from the staff. I understand that it can be confusing. You log on, and your cabal's been penalized 500cps... why? Perhaps it's part of some plot, perhaps it's because someone ignored cabal duties. However, allow me to ease your mind in that the decisions for these sorts of punishments are not willy-nilly. Often, we discuss several lines of punishments before choosing one, based on whether the offence was a breach of game rules, rp rules, or both.

While I can't pretend to know, I wonder how many of these comments regarding punishments for RP are based on fact or speculation. Certainly you'll agree that sometimes people jump to conclusions without having the facts (or, conversely, lacking trust in the information they have). When in doubt, ask. Believe me, we'll tell you why something has happened if it pertains to you.

Kyzarius: I have the memory of a goldfish, sadly, but from what I recall of your experiences with Sepahoona - as you mentioned - you were given a great deal of leeway. While your ultimate goal was in line with your ethos, how you went about it often crossed the expressed 'static' lines of RP. Your trifecta, for instance, was a stretch (at least for Volgathras, he doesn't like to share). As it was you were already doing things that were out of the box and trailblazing, but certainly if you had, say, tried to combine the powers of Compassion and Chaos you'd have a very confused administrative staff grilling you for a proper RP reason. There's a line that can be crossed, and that's where disagreenments like this arise. Again, you're free to ask and respectfully argue your point if you come across a situation like this.

Edit: Come to think of it, often the reason for confusion and conflict in regards to proper RP springs from the fact that 'the line' does in fact change, it isn't static. I think we can agree that how strictly we follow certain gray areas has changed - most notably across administrations. There have been characters who have far and away crossed that line and we the administration have had LENGTHLY discussions (several pages of discussions on imm-only) on how we can adjust a situation to fit an individual's RP while still remaining within the framework essential to keep the game from descending in to chaos. It has been a personal goal of mine as a staff hire to raise the bar in RP, and this includes allowing for a myriad of variables outside of the norm.

You can assume your RP is safe if; 1.) You adhere to the core tenets of your alignment (goods cannot help evils ever), 2.) Your views and actions do not directly conflict with the express orders of your cabal immortal (discussed above; listen to your boss), 3.) Your views and actions do not monstrously oppose your ethos (I'm chaotic, but I'll assist in rebuilding Rheydin because I want my 1-move-per-room back).

[f0xx]

3.) Your views and actions do not monstrously oppose your ethos (I'm chaotic' date=' but I'll assist in rebuilding Rheydin because I want my 1-move-per-room back).[/quote']

Now that got me.

Can you please explain how does the rebuild of Rheydin has anything do (and to be more precise - conflicts) with being chaotic? (I will put my thoughts on the matter after I see your reasoning and why you think those two conflict each other).

I don't have a problem with discussing RP views with the staff. I have a problem with staff who thinks they are never wrong.

I've had situations where I've had to explain rules to immortals, where I've had to explain how the code functions and situations where immortals themselves can't separate OOC from RP. Sometimes immortals come to me with their mind already made. If you have your mind already made, then why bother to talk to me at all?

Not even gonna discuss the situations where I've been punished just because some immortals has decided that "it's gonna be my way" or situations where immortals have simply went nuts and called names.

Now, I can understand. We are all humans, we all have real lives and we all get affected by them and *sometimes* that affects our judgement. It is NORMAL, we are all humans.

Frankly, I think most of the staff takes things way to seriously. After all it's just a game.

[jibber]

Every time I talk to you f0xx, I get the urge to beat you over the head with the forum "you're stubborn" stick. I can't imagine how the immortals feel

All jokes aside though, I don't see how being chaotic ethos would have a problem or conflict with the building or destruction of Rheydin. Being a demonic, drow loving, nexusite, perhaps, might, but not someone with an ethos that is chaotic.

[Erana]

Yea, Volg, aren't the Knights chaotic?