Pali Posted October 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Look up the name Anwar Al-Awlaki. Religious fanatic? Check. Hated America and called for its people to be killed? Check. Traitor, and legally worthy of the death penalty (though guilty of no other death-penalty worthy crimes to my knowledge)? Almost certainly. Killed without trial, without attempt of capture, without extenuating circumstances requiring deadly force? Check. This is the part I have a problem with - this country is increasingly moving in the direction of seeing trials for crimes as optional, and is now extending that view to include its own citizens. That is a serious problem when it comes to civil liberties - and it's why the last item on the first list is not a check. That check is to be determined by the courts - not by the executive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Samag' date=' were you to factor in other conditions that affect people's "mindsets" (education, culture, living situation, etc.), I think the outcome of your experiment would come out with both groups doing fairly evenly. Of course, you've also given no metric beyond how much money they have to determine good results from bad ones... a metric that I hardly consider sufficient for determining how one should live one's life. But I guess that's just the socialist in me speaking. [/quote'] By 'mindset', I think samag was just pointing out that upper class individuals tend to get there by making smart decisions in life, while lower class individuals stay there through bad decisions, and that given a reset to a common starting point, those same individuals would make the same types of decisions and end up in the same positions again. I agree with his statement whole-heartedly. But I guess that's just the libertarian in me speaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Look up the name Anwar Al-Awlaki. Religious fanatic? Check. Hated America and called for its people to be killed? Check. Traitor, and legally worthy of the death penalty (though guilty of no other death-penalty worthy crimes to my knowledge)? Almost certainly. Killed without trial, without attempt of capture, without extenuating circumstances requiring deadly force? Check. This is the part I have a problem with - this country is increasingly moving in the direction of seeing trials for crimes as optional, and is now extending that view to include its own citizens. That is a serious problem when it comes to civil liberties - and it's why the last item on the first list is not a check. That check is to be determined by the courts - not by the executive. Mark the calender Pali, I agree with you on this one. Quite a bit of a thread derail though. Ron Paul agrees with you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Quite a bit of a thread derail though. My thread, I can derail it if I please. As for Ron Paul... there's a lot I like there, but also a lot I don't. His being a creationist is enough of a disqualification that I can't support him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Wow...I thought foreign policy was selling us downriver before. :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyzarius Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 There will always be frustration amongst people regarding wealth. There is one major problem with the mindset of many people who beg for all the freebies. I would like to see an experiment. Take a group of average lower income/low net worth individuals and give them 50k and wipe their slate clean from debts or obligations. Next take a group high income/high net worth individuals and do the same. Wipe everything, debts and assets out besides the same 50k. Fast forward one year, two years, five years and ten years. I would be willing to wager that in most cases the group of high net worth individuals would be much better off once again. In my experience in this life I have worked for minimum wages, worked in management, run a business, etc. I have seen things from many different angles and one thing has repeatedly made all the difference between succeeding and growing wealthier and failing and growing poorer. Mindset. You are right. I know buisness contacts/friends that had WAY more than the 50k in your example 10 years ago, yet ended up with nothing. While at the same time, I had nothing 10 yeas ago, and now have my own rather succesful buisness. Money doesnt make a career. The person does. Give an irresponsible oaf a million dollars, and all you do is fabricate a temporarily rich oaf. Here are several lotto winners who themselves, or their greedy families/friends proved you cant just throw money at some people. http://www.businessinsider.com/10-lottery-winners-who-lost-it-all-2010-5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samag08 Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 I cannot recall the exact statistics, but speaking generally, over 90% of the people who win the lottery eventually file bankruptcy. Financial literacy is unfortunately absent in society today. I have found it quite amusing(depressing really) that so much time and effort goes into so many subjects throughout an adolescent's educational career but this one falls so far short on that list. In response to Pali, the reason I simply brought up wealth in my previous post is because having some degree of financial peace in your life opens up avenues(both physically and mentally) that would not otherwise be possible. These is no sound way to quantify someone's personal satisfaction in life. I can simply state that when I was young and broke(and working 2-3 jobs) I was under MUCH more personal stress. Time that could have been spent on many more enjoyable aspects of life was overshadowed by the burning desire to not have to worry about having a paycheck coming in to keep the lights and heat on and food on the table. As you put a plan together and implement it you will find great satisfaction in the peace that it affords you, allowing your mind to more often wander to more personal and gratifying avenues. There are so many scary statistics out there anymore..... 90%+ of Americans have LESS than $2,000 set aside in an emergency fund.... (Not certain on 2011 so far) From 2008-2010 Americans spent(took on debt) 100%+ relative to their incomes.... We may have structural problems in our society, but personal finance is exactly that, personal. In most cases, if you are broke, it is not the governments fault. It is not Wall Street's fault. It is not your neighbor's fault. It comes down to the piss poor planning and execution by the person looking back at you in the mirror every morning. Again, I realize there may be different views and perspectives. Mine comes from many years on various rungs of the ladder we call Capitalism. For nearly ten years now I have been teaching personal finance through my church. I can only say that based on the financial illiteracy of most when they first come in and the difference when they walk out, that good and bad behavior will make or break the prosperity of not only yourself but your family tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 Part of the problem with ignoring culture and education, samag, is that those things help create the people we are. We are not free agents that grow absent environmental influences. Social mobility is at an incredible low right now - to act as if one's financial condition and possibilities are solely of their own making is to ignore many other factors. Financial illiteracy is fairly ubiquitous in our society, and access to somewhere one can learn is far from guaranteed. We essentially are setting people up to fail by not teaching them the skills they need for modern society, either within the school system or elsewhere, and then telling them it is their fault for failing when they reach adulthood without the knowledge they'd need to do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demiterracotta Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 I'd almost disagree with you Samag, but it's just on semantics. I make around 7k a YEAR. I have around 500k or so in assets. I'm poor as hell, but if you gave me 50k and wiped my slate clean, I'd be richer than I am now, and still be gaining money in 5 years. Granted, I'm gaining money NOW, but still.....50k would make it so I could retire way earlier. Financial illiteracy is fairly ubiquitous in our society' date=' and access to somewhere one can learn is far from guaranteed. We essentially are setting people up to fail by not teaching them the skills they need for modern society, either within the school system or elsewhere, and then telling them it is their fault for failing when they reach adulthood without the knowledge they'd need to do better.[/quote'] I agree with this wholeheartedly, I made horrible financial decisions when I first graduated from High School (Take note, Credit Cards are NOT free money). It's something that even a basic financial management class should be required to get a high school diploma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samag08 Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 I agree that financial education is sorely lacking in our culture. For years I have wished to see some sort of basic financial planning/accounting classes be incorporated not just as a single lesson, but something to be built upon. I find it irresponsible that we have gym classes, and art classes, and cooking classes in our schools yet, some of them even being required, yet teaching young adults to avoid debt and credit cards, live on a balanced budget, and set goals is largely ignored. I'd like to see it as a required subject from junior high school on. As it is now though, that is not the case, and the best path to success is to start from right where you are, right now. Regarding environment, again this is a personal choice that we all make. There are successes and failures from all walks of life. Many have made it from dirt poor to wealthy and comfortable and vice versa. If you want to be a great golfer who do you talk to? Bad golfers? Your friends? No, you go find a great golfer and study them, and then you find another and do it again. If you are poor and are unfortunate enough to have parents that did not or could not instill good financial values in you, you have two ways to look at it: One, you are comfortable being poor and choose to remain that way as it is the status quo. Or(my favorite), you talk to the people who have been there and learn the attributes and lessons that they can grant you. I highly doubt that many of this country who are poor have taken up the effort to head to the library(Free) and read every book in the personal finance and investment sections. Very few people would not at least find inspiration at that point and find ways to make things start moving in their lives. P.S. Demi- Well done on amassing a respectable sum. Although I am not privy to the specifics of your situation, 7k a year seems like very minor interest off that nest egg, so I must assume that you are currently unemployed or disabled. If not, what the heck are you doing full time that only makes 7k a year???LoL. "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." Thomas Jefferson "If you aim at nothing, you'll hit it every time" Zig Ziglar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I highly doubt that many of this country who are poor have taken up the effort to head to the library(Free) and read every book in the personal finance and investment sections. Very few people would not at least find inspiration at that point and find ways to make things start moving in their lives. I don't disagree that few have, but keep in mind that a single mom working two jobs very likely doesn't have the time to. Your choice of words was spot on - going to the library and studying finances is indeed quite an effort, an effort that can be very difficult to fit into an already crowded schedule. The only real point I'm trying to make here is that simply blaming the poor for being poor ("get a job", "change your mindset", etc.) is only looking at a small part of the broader issues regarding distribution of wealth, education, etc. in our society and how those things impact people's lives. I completely agree that financial classes should be required curriculum well before college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I completely agree that financial classes should be required curriculum well before college. You were doing so well, Pali, for those one or two posts. Now I'm back to disagreeing with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 You were doing so well' date=' Pali, for those one or two posts. Now I'm back to disagreeing with you. [/quote'] Couldn't last forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Yes, Pali, what's wrong with you? Education implies we have a responsibility to each other. These nice gentlemen keep telling you everyone only has a responsibility to themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demiterracotta Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 P.S. Demi- Well done on amassing a respectable sum. Although I am not privy to the specifics of your situation, 7k a year seems like very minor interest off that nest egg, so I must assume that you are currently unemployed or disabled. If not, what the heck are you doing full time that only makes 7k a year???LoL. "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude." Thomas Jefferson "If you aim at nothing, you'll hit it every time" Zig Ziglar Contrary to popular belief. Farming doesn't make a ton of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8o3peQq79Q&feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Forget the 99%, meet the 53%. And, as expected, the truth about this "protest" starts to roll out: http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/06/organizer-admits-to-paying-occupy-dc-protesters-video/ http://www.theblaze.com/stories/video-exposing-occupy-wall-street-was-organized-from-day-one-by-seiu-acorn-front-the-working-family-party-and-how-they-all-tie-to-the-obama-administration-dnc-democratic-socialists-of-america/ Ok, the second link might be a little over the top, but the video is real, and the video speaks for itself. Are you sure you really want to back this movement, Valek? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Forget the 99%' date=' meet the 53%. This, like many articles of the same tone, fails to acknowledge that these people still pay payroll, Medicare, and Social Security taxes so long as they are employed - it relates only to income taxes. And considering that the "other half" they're pissed off about - about a hundred fifty million people - has the combined wealth of the top 400 people... yeah, I'm not too angry about peasants paying less in taxes than the aristocracy. http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/06/organizer-admits-to-paying-occupy-dc-protesters-video/ Still better than the racism of Tea Party rallies. Seriously, though, whoever was doing this was an idiot... they should've known better. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/video-exposing-occupy-wall-street-was-organized-from-day-one-by-seiu-acorn-front-the-working-family-party-and-how-they-all-tie-to-the-obama-administration-dnc-democratic-socialists-of-america/ I find nothing at all objectionable in that video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted October 9, 2011 Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 This, like many articles of the same tone, fails to acknowledge that these people still pay payroll, Medicare, and Social Security taxes so long as they are employed - it relates only to income taxes. And considering that the "other half" they're pissed off about - about a hundred fifty million people - has the combined wealth of the top 400 people... yeah, I'm not too angry about peasants paying less in taxes than the aristocracy. Pali, the 53% bit was started in response to the 99% picture that had been floating around. Also, if you are calling the people mentioned in that article "aristocrats", well, I think we need to take a look at your definition of the term. Still better than the racism of Tea Party rallies. Seriously' date=' though, whoever was doing this was an idiot... they should've known better.[/quote'] You know its funny that one person out of a crowd of 50k at a tea party rally acts like an idiot, and we label the entire rally idiots. A few hundred people out of a thousand protestors act like idiots, and we ignore it. I find nothing at all objectionable in that video. Of course, a woman admitting that this so-called grassroots protest was actually organized by a front for SEIU/ACORN... nothing objectionable there. I particularly like that last picture with the poor downtrodden college kids twittering away on their laptops and smartphones. Yeah, their opinions really carry a lot of weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2011 Oh, don't get me wrong - the "let's take the bridge" idea was quite stupid, I agree. The Tea Party crack I meant primarily as a joke, though I do think there's an undercurrent of racism bedeviling that movement, Islamaphobia in particular. And no, I wasn't referring to those people as aristocrats... Duped into defending aristocratic policies, however, may apply. And considering that the Tea Party was pretty much a creation of Fox News... That left-wing groups are finally starting to organize in similar ways is fine by me. And let's not pretend that having a cellphone or laptop prevents one from undergoing financial hardships, particularly in an age where cell phones have pretty much replaced land lines and a laptop is a basic tool for students to the point where many schools will provide them to students for free (how I got my first, actually). Living in a ditch is not the point people should need to reach before they are justified in saying that the system is unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samag08 Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Go occupy a shower. Go occupy a job. Pay your bills responsibly and the "evil Wall Street guys" won't bother you one bit. Just make sure you work hard, millions of lazier Americans depend on your generosity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted October 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 Telling people to just get a job would make a lot more sense if we didn't have a 5-1 ratio of unemployed to jobs - and that's ignoring the millions not counted in the official unemployment numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinblades713 Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 God forbid you should make your own job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samag08 Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 My last post was just having a bit of fun Pali. This situation just wears on you after a while. Two more things on my mind though- -Everyone is so negative, depending on who you listen to 83-91 percent of Americans still do have jobs. -The difference between most rich and poor people- -The rich have big libraries and small television sets. -The poor have small libraries and big television sets. ^ I'm just sayin';) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samag08 Posted October 10, 2011 Report Share Posted October 10, 2011 God forbid you should make your own job. You should feel guilty about creating your own success, you rotten rich bastard! p.s. Everyone heard back in kindergarten that it is nice of you to share your blocks with other kids. Some people misunderstood this as you HAVE to share your blocks with them. Their mommies never explained to them private property or ownership. My blocks are mine and it is my choice to share them or not. Such childish behaviors out of grown-ups should be rewarded with the same attention that you allow a kindergartener throwing a tantrum because they cannot have little Billy's toys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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