Complaining.

[Twinblades713]

Yes.

[jibber]

Most of the complaining done on the facebook page, fortunately, is about people who complain to the IMMs about every wrong doing that happens to them making it a horrible atmosphere to play in.

You may frequent the facebook page, Grimulfr, and in turn let everyone believe you're not an Immortal there, but regardless you know as well as I (since I'm pretty bloody sure you're talking about me) that I DESPISE people who complain about me because I do better than they do, or that I loot, or that I egg on the nay-doers.

It's not a medium policed by the Immortals, (but this forum is), so you can't say something's ALL GOOD just because something happens on a medium that you shouldn't really involve your opinions about in the first place.

[Grimulfr]

@ Tassin:

I didn't mean to suggest that there was anything wrong with Kyzarius' RP. Of course RP can change over time. I was just noting that RP is more than just what cabal you're in.

@ Jibber:

I gave no indication that I was talking about you, all I said was "Some people in this thread". You are free to draw whatever inference you like, but I wasn't "naming and shaming" any one person.

I wouldn't say I frequent the Facebook page, but I have been on there occasionally. Most of those times it has been the battle ground for fairly obscene arguments between various players ranging from accusations of outright cheating to general trashiness.

The Immortals do not police the Facebook page, nor do they use the Facebook page to police the game (in that you won't find yourself getting banned from the forum for things you say on the Facebook page). However I can use the Facebook page as much as anyone else can as an indication of who complains.

Here is complaining summed up from an Immortals perspective:

Player A: "Player B is such a whiner..."

Player B: "Player A is such a whiner..."

Imm: "Man, Player A and Player B both whine as much as each other."

[jibber]

We also all need to realize that "Immortals" are human too, and that they were once players (and actually, most of them were players after the general veteran player base).

The problem I have here, is, there's an obvious HUGE problem here (yes, I've spoken to IMMs about it, several times, 1on1) with serial players complaining about one, or several of three things: looting, ganging, and "ooc rings".

[Tantangel]

Where's LA when you need him, eh? You guys lock him up there with the rest of you Imms?

Seriously though, I honestly think most people have changed for the better (granted I can't see what people complain about) as I haven't seen as much bitching about things as I used to. Sure, here and there, but overall I think everyone is doing a great job. I believe the Imms do a pretty good job, well enough I know that if I have a concern about something I feel like something is being done about it, especially when they post something as simple as "I'll look into it."

For some people that's not enough because they want the answer handed to me. Since I've had to give some of those answers to other employees in recent times, I see now (albeit a different perspective entirely) how that game works. No I'm not kissing *** either, I just have more respect for what they have to deal with having had to deal with issues of other employees and getting to see 'the other side' so to speak.

As for the players, I commend everyone for their lack of bitching overall because quite frankly it used to be horrible and I'd see at least a post a day. Yeah, we all will have to rage at some point, but it's not nearly as horrendous as it used to be, so give yourselves a pat on the back.

[Kyzarius]

A few things:

@ Kyzarius: "I am not a Watcher anymore, I am not bound by those rules".

You had good RP when I first spoke to you as a rank 30 something, your RP then was very pro-Watcher. I hope that you don't think that you should only have to follow your RP when you are a member of the cabal. It's your RP, which should be your RP whether you are in a cabal that demands you enforce it or not.

I have made a point of sticking to the warder mentality. However, not being in the cabal means if I do happen to pass up an Avatar/qrace it would have no immediate penalty in game, which is what I believe the post was trying to imply I deserved.

Just ask Kevlin about how much I hate the avatar.

If you want to test my RP, you can always tackle me in game.

to add..didnt you say that warders are not to prioritize "special" races anyways, that it is a secondary need for them?

[Anume]

Just a few thoughts:

- most current imms are from beta or 1.0 (not that it really matters)

- any neutral needs a solid reason to kill anyone (not Watcher specific), this reason might be tested by the staff if we think it does not hold up or becomes to "broad"

- I think a generalization to say a complaint to your opposite cabal's leader is ooc or bad rp is not really applicable. It depends on the chars rp. I can see a savant or a pandemonium doing this very well, fitting their rp perfectly.

[Enethier]

A thread complaining about people complaining...

[Trick]

Yes, it is a thread complaining about complaining. How clever.

More so, its purpose was to bring this to everyone's attention about how, in my opinion, it has gotten out of control. People are deleting and quitting because of bitching. We lost one of our very best years back because of this. What do people chose to bitch about the most?

1. Ganging. Guess what guys? It's legal. Get over it.

2. Looting. " You looted and you don't need it!?" Yeah. I don't want YOU to have it. Why? Because you are going to try to kill me again OR my friends. Get over it.

3. 'Tagging'. " You knew I was fighting him and you attacked me anyways!!!" Uh...I can't see everything at all times. If I'm not in the area when you are getting attacked, guess what? I don't know about it. Tell me that you are fighting someone else and I will stop. I promise.

4. Using specific tactics. " All you did was this! Way to go. Feel strong now? "

Uhh..yeah? I PK to win. Not to let you get away. If I use a tactic, it's because its been used on me and that's where I learned it. Wait for DK charmie to run down then catch you when you try to get it back, sorry..? Lag lock you...Uhh..have flight or -ac/enlarge. Get over it.

[Enethier]

I'm not demeaning the thread. Just made me chuckle. I used to be a HUGE complainer. Anymore, if I get annoyed with something in the game, I do something else for a while. All of the above has happened to me this month alone.

But I don't complain about it anymore, because things happen. I take it as a compliment now, that they need to bring two or more to fight me, full loot me, or tag me. If they beat me with tactics, then well, I didn't deserve the win anyway.

Unfortunately, saying "You shouldn't complain" or the infamous "Harden up, princess" isn't going to accomplish anything but further agitate the situation. I see it much like I see an adolescent's behavior. You can tell them not to do something, punish them for doing it, etc. but in they will always resist what you tell them. It's something that they will mature into in time. Sure, punsihment and scolding has a degree of success, but ultimately, the decision of whether or not to complain (or behave in such a manner) lies with the individual, and as people we are generally far too stubborn to listen to somebody that we feel has wronged us.

It's already happening in this thread. People are tossing dirt around. They're bringing it out of the forums, talking amongst themselves about it, and letting it fester and get the better of them. People feel like they are being called out publicly, and these threads are having the opposite effect of what they are intended to have.

Edit: There...

[f0xx]

It's actually "Harden up, princess"

I like the more recent though - U MAD BRO?

Makes me chuckle big time.

[Pali]

Yeah, get it right.

[Warmongrel]

Whats the difference between ganging and tagging(intentionally tagging)? Just curious. Honestly i like gangers. Not many really good pkers will travel in a group with someone to attack another, so usually its pretty defeatable if they dont catch you offguard. Now if tagging is letting someone fight another then attacking when they are weak, not a big fan of that, i will often stick around very close to death in a fight with someone so it doesnt take much of someone else attackin to end things once ive headed for retreat.

[Trick]

Ganging = Grouping up or attacking together.

Tagging = Two or more people fighting one person in a tag-team fashion.

Both, in my opinion, are legal. Now, they are not legal for Elders, Leaders, or Q/things. Why? Because those individuals are supposed to be above all that. They are the "special" people. If I get ganged/tagged, I tell my cabal or my clan. One of my allies will take on the other person, and now it's back to one on one.

[Grimulfr]

If people are complaining baselessly, there are a few ways to handle it:

1) Try to RP with them;

2) Let them complain and ignore them;

If their complaining persists and becomes overly harrassing or OOC you can always report it to the Immortals.

We should remember that people are usually complaining because they died, and dying (with or without being looted) can be highly frustrating. They might just be blowing off some steam with a few ill-advised words in the heat of the moment. They are not always trying to character-assassinate you behind the scenes.

If we all do what we can to not exacerbate the problem, I'm sure the issue will go into decline.

[The-Nameless]

Gang me. I don't care. Trash me i don't care, full i don't care. Just don't forget all the crap pulled when I'm all over you like leather on anume. Believe i will be back i will get you and i won'tbe nice about it. I . Learned to pk from the big bad boys grinding me into dust. I learned to pk without a god suit. I earned my place in fl as a good pker, don't think that you talking one of my sixty lives is gonna do more than put you on my list.

It comes down to knowledge. I know ALOT about this place, it gives me advantages you won't have. I got to that point by getting stomped senseless. I did not get better by verbally assaulting other characters or players. I promise you won't get better that way either. The thing is you just have to be here a while to do well. Solo clearing factipns is not about being a filthy decked power combo, it is about patience and knowing what to do.

Why go for arctron when you know you will loser it, why not stock to mithril sabre til you are good that way then go for big shinies. Your only gonna rage delete when you lose those adeptus legs, why not just get tentacle leg plates till you kick *** with those.

[Mmm Coffee]

^ Amen ^

Though I don't claim to be a top PK'er...especially not with melees.

[Twinblades713]

Here is my one issue on this subject, otherwise I've stayed away.

I have never cared about being ganged (Imms/Prayer forum might beg to differ) but!!! I hate double standards, which has been the cause of nearly every rage delete I've encountered in myself.

As Nameless JUST said... someone gangs me, that's fine. Those are the rules they wanna play by. All's good. It's when I treat the character the same way in return, and I get punished for it. That's what's bs, that's what has happened more than twice, more than three times. That's the only reason I've rage deleted. Many of my chars just drift away, but the ones that leave abruptly. It's a double standard. If you gang me, I should damn well be able to gang you and not get slain, cp docked, demoted, or otherwise punished. Trashy is subjective, so it doesn't really matter. If you want to tag me, I will tag you.

It's not about class, some people have the RP to always be forthright, some characters will always be opportunist. I've had both sides. I had a DK that would get a kill in any way. BUT, I expected ganging in return, I expected full loots, I never once got butthurt after a death or consequences. It's when the playing field isn't level that I get

over the game quickly. Level in the sense of OOC consequences for IG actions that happen between two characters in a justified manner.

Edit:

Which is why I've thought for awhile that it would be neat to return to the days of nearly no pk rules. No restrictions. We have in place ways to make the game newbie friendly, the moderate tier, crumble changes, rare capacity increased. As an RP mechanic of PK, if that concept makes sense, it would be more realistic that the world went back to how cutthroat it was. Again, this may seem like a regression, but we have the ease of play mechanics put in. Maybe even more could be put in to tone the harshness of getting killed. But that's just it. I think getting killed should happen in the world. As it is now from what I gather, and as it was when I was playing several months ago... you practically need an application to kill someone. Let there be roving gangs, and if it gets ****ed up let them be slain. Let the world act as violently as it would in a natural fantasy world. Not one dumbed down by this threat of quitting via trashiness. I must keep reiterating, I don't support trashy behavior. But the word has become defined to make everyone ****ing ninnies. I remember when I had NO clue what I was doing, or RP restrictions or rules.... I tried to drop EQ for another character so I could delete and reroll. Bryntryst purged the room, slayed me three times, and put me at my pit. I learned. It was harsh, but it was REAL. That's why I feel is being lost. That's what I want back, even at the price of a harder environment. Since trashy and classy have been redefined, I think it could be a worthy idea to let the concepts grow in a natural way. A DK should always be trashy by today's standards. Natural consequences should grow. It should be hard to be a DK. If I was neutral in a world where I knew the concept of a guild of dark knights, I would NOT hesitate to attack one that was near me if it was not actively leaving. Letting them live, or trusting them is called being ignorant, oblivious, or stupid. This wouldn't compromise ethos, or align... but I think it would be more real.

[Erana]

If you are what Trick mentioned (elder/leader/qrace/qclass), and you get tagged or even ganged, then no, you can't retaliate in kind. That is a misnomer as a double standard, as we aren't dealing with the same situation reversed.

Certain cabals will react very negatively to ganging, depending on the choice of the cabal IMM and the interpretation of the RP behind the cabal, as well as the general balance of the game at the time. A good rule of thumb is if the situation is imbalanced (and a 2vs1 is imbalanced sometimes for the TWO), you probably won't get much heat for a tag and it could be completely justified. There are some cases where you HAVE to tag or gang to bring somebody down. That person would not be justified in returning the favor with a similar gang.

The problem is in needless and repeated tags, often done in the guise of supporting your friends/cabalmates/whoever. Mistakes happen, but they happen only rarely.

There are also some situations that are very much like tags in practice, but are not technically tags. For example, a lagger hanging out near a laggable char's 1vs1 fight, watching. The presence of the lagger will completely change the tactics of the fight, regardless if that lagger actually engages. Hanging out near a raged berserker and 'getting attacked' is another. Disrupting the use of area spells is a third.

Also, some tags/gangs are dirtier than others. Monk chii + giant lag lock is a nasty thing. Defending the altar or a thief hanging at your pit are not as bad--they are expected. Rogues are given more leeway as this is how they operate, whether it is through studying or trapping.

Most importantly, remember that IMMs are human. That means we will not judge you like a machine. You could be doing something technically legal or illegal, but we will handle it based on that particular context and your record. Play with good intentions and in the mindset of everybody having fun, and you'll rarely have any conflict with the staff. Skirt the edges, you might get burned. You might think it doesn't matter to get denied/punished, but if you are playing for the long term, it may very well come back and bite you in the butt.

[jibber]

Twin, why aren't you an IMP?

[jibber]

A thief hanging at your pit is not as bad--it is expected. Rogues are given more leeway as this is how they operate' date=' whether it is through studying or trapping.[/quote']

I'm going to start by saying: None of the IMMs have treated me less than a human, and have been generally cordial about every incident which involved me.

However, that quote, is utter BS. Zleiaur, for example, was given 0 leeway. We had a long discussion "In Deep ****" because I full looted a level 46 drow shaman who jumped on me while I was running after someone else.

The consensus? Don't do it. Sorry, jibber, you're not allowed to because it ruins the fun of other players. Sorry, jibber, you need to be the bigger player here and play for your fun AND the fun of others. (No problem). But people who deserve what they get shouldn't be punishable if they do it themselves. I studied while others fought -- I did it OFTEN. What ninja doesn't???.

I studied after finding that toe to toe would mean my death. I think I had four assassinates (and I logged them) and 6 other PKs that didn't involve an assassinate. The double standards here, whether you want to say they exist or not, are HERE!

Now, I find it very difficult to play a regular character. I'm held by the restrictions that a qclass/qrace/elder/leader is held to. Regardless of what I play or how I play it. I don't necessarily mind qrace/qclass being held to a higher standard, but I do mind certain players being held to a higher standard than others because the others can't stomach something they jumped into.

[Erana]

Re: Twins

You dropped your eq to reroll and it was nasty that your char was slain three times? The char was going to be deleted anyways...

Free gangs: This was done in mid-2.0 to mid-3.0 as we had little IMM oversight during the period from Behrens to Malch. It was an absolute OOC mess and we lost 75% of our playerbase.

[jibber]

Re: Twins

You dropped your eq to reroll and it was nasty that your char was slain three times? The char was going to be deleted anyways...

Think he meant his new character which went to pick it up.

[Erana]

Re: Jibber

You could be doing something technically legal or illegal, but we will handle it based on that particular context and your record.

If you want to debate the particulars, take it up on prayer, as we don't discuss punishments publicly, even if the player wants us to.

--

Re: Jibber

If it was a new char, not much lost either.

[Twinblades713]

I wasn't saying it was a bad thing, I don't know what you're getting at. I was saying, this made it feel real. I got punished for doing a bad thing by an Imm, in a real way. Like I said, it was my first character and I was 13 and had no one teach me the ways of the game, so I was scared ****less. Regardless, it was a real consequence, and I liked it. Not an OOC talk, not a ban, not a deep ****, not a... whatever. I tried to cheat in a God's world and got killed. That's real.

Ehh, I'm also not here to mount an offensive. I was just expressing some feelings, and what would be neat and inviting, at least from my perspective.