Imoutgoodbye Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 Can you do me a favor and pass this around your area for me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 *laughs* Pretty much everyone I know is already planning to vote tomorrow, myself included, but thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Well, it was definitely a decent turn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jibber Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Definitely glad Scott Walker won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Definitely glad Scott Walker won. I agree. Voter suppression, massive cuts to education and keeping the rights of gays and women minimized are exactly the path Wisconsin should carve into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflayer Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Hah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trick Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I agree. Voter suppression' date=' massive cuts to education and keeping the rights of gays and women minimized are exactly the path Wisconsin should carve into the future.[/quote'] Yeah! **** all those people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I agree. Voter suppression' date=' massive cuts to education and keeping the rights of gays and women minimized are exactly the path Wisconsin should carve into the future.[/quote'] Please elaborate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jibber Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Indeed, please do -- because it seems to me that the voters voted 52% to 47% in favor of walker, and 'voter suppression' was definitely not in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted June 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Indeed' date=' please do -- because it seems to me that the voters voted 52% to 47% in favor of walker, and 'voter suppression' was definitely not in the mix.[/quote'] Automated messages were being sent out to multiple people the night before the election stating that anyone who signed the recall petition had already voted and if they attempted to vote again they would be charged with voter fraud, a felony. That was just one example of voter suppression happening. I'm sure Pali can tell you more having been at ground zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cephirus Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Currently Walker's staff is under investigation (from the time just before he was elected governor, and was Milwaukee County Executive) for embezzlement and other charges (the investigation is being very vague unfortunately). Although no charges have been publicly brought against him, if your closest aids are doing illegal things, how can you not know or even be conspiring with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Walker's gubernatorial campaign was based around two things: creating jobs and balancing the budget. While I hated the way he handled the collective bargaining issue, I cannot deny that it did somewhat help achieve the latter goal (in closing a 3.6 billion gap, the most favorable estimates I've seen were that it may have saved $300 million), and I would not have supported the recall for this reason alone. The first goal, however, has NOT been achieved - by even the most generous accounting given by Walker's administration (accounting that is supposed to be federally verified before being released but has not - however, given the methodology, I expect it is likely fairly accurate regardless), WI's job growth is below the national average. This is in large part because Walker's administration has heavily focused on non-economic social issues over the last year. Voter ID laws were passed requiring the presentation of a state ID to vote. After challenges that called it Jim Crow in nature (which I agree with - in the absence of meaningful levels of voter fraud, which was the case, I am against anything that makes it harder for a citizen to vote), it was amended to allow people to get IDs for free. There was then a systematic effort through the WI Dept. of Transportation to NOT inform people that they could get IDs for free if they required one to vote, and to misinform them on how to obtain an ID for voting. In the end, this law was struck down as unconstitutional by the courts, and was not in effect for the recall - something many were not aware of. There have also been a number of controversies regarding the redistricting process, entirely controlled by Repulicans, from how it was done in secret in contempt of WI's open govt. laws to being ruled as violating the rights of Latinos in southern Milwaukee. Walker, like most conservative Christians, is against gay marriage rights, and has publicly stated such. WI had already banned gay marriage through a constitutional amendment in 2006, though in 2009 a change was made allowing same-sex couples to sign into a domestic partner registry, allowing them some of the rights married couples get (like hospital visitation). A private group brought a challenge to this change arguing that it violated the constitutional amendment, and the Republican state attorney general refused to defend it. Then-governor Doyle hired an attorney to defend it, and within two months of taking office Walker had fired this attorney, then later filed a motion for the state to stop defending it. Regardless, the law was found to be constitutional. The education budget in WI was cut by over $800 million under Walker's budget, just shy of 10% of their budget, and schools were forbidden to raise local property taxes to offset the loss. He's specifically cut funding for Advanced Placement programs, special education programs and drug information and abuse programs. He did this at the same time as he was passing hundreds of millions of dollars in tax cuts for corporations. Walker has banned abortions to be gained through a health insurance exchange as set up under the Affordable Care Act. He has also signed legislation requiring women seeking an abortion to undergo an exam and speak privately with a doctor, away from friends and family, purportedly to ensure that she is not being pressured into having one. He has cut funding for Planned Parenthood and similar health and family planning centers. He has repealed the Equal Pay Enforcement Act, which provided legal recourse to fight wage discrimination due to, among other things, gender and sexual orientation. Sex Ed teachers are now required to stress abstinence, and are specifically NOT required to discuss contraception. I'm not bothering to provide links because I've had a very long day on very little sleep and I'm exhausted. However, nothing I have said above cannot be confirmed through a bit of Google searching if you're unwilling to take my word for it. P.S. The man's done plenty more in terms of things I find objectionable that I don't care to spend the time going into right now - but you asked for elaboration, so here it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 And it begins again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I have zero interest in another political debate. The above are facts, not opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 And it begins again... Take some time and learn to fully appreciate the disregard I have for a party that stresses individual liberties and freedoms, but persecutes those who are not like them by denying them individual rights that should be granted to every human, that says government should stay out of their wallets (they mean corporations wallets) and then tells people how they can live their lives. Because, let's face it: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Pali I won't dissect your long list of disagreements with Walker, but none of what you list is illegal or justified the use of a recall vote. The entire process was an attempt by Big Labor to strong arm an elected official out of office for daring to try and limit its power. Big Labor lost. I have zero interest in another political debate. The above are facts' date=' not opinion.[/quote'] Pali is no fun anymore. Take some time and learn to fully appreciate the disregard I have for a party that stresses individual liberties and freedoms' date=' but persecutes those who are not like them by denying them individual rights that should be granted to every human, that says government should stay out of their wallets (they mean corporations wallets) and then tells people how they can live their lives.[/quote'] Yes, because obviously we should lump everyone in along party lines and further entrench the mentality of 'us vs them'. Since you label yourself a Democrat, should you be asked to defend every single decision piece of legislation passed by any one who has ever labeled themselves a Democrat? Let's evaluate individuals on the merits of their own ideas and actions rather than lumping them into a label. Bad Valek! Currently Walker's staff is under investigation (from the time just before he was elected governor' date=' and was Milwaukee County Executive) for embezzlement and other charges (the investigation is being very vague unfortunately). Although no charges have been publicly brought against him, if your closest aids are doing illegal things, how can you not know or even be conspiring with them?[/quote'] This is hilariously ironic, since Obama, king of the democrats, escaped Chicago unscathed while near every single other politician that served with him there has been brought up on corruption charges or found to be involved with a number of ridiculous scandals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Pali I won't dissect your long list of disagreements with Walker' date=' but none of what you list is illegal or justified the use of a recall vote.[/quote'] I never said it did. I fully agree that the actions I listed do not justify a recall. False campaigning, however, I think does. Much of what Walker has focused on he did not say anything about during his campaign. The way I view things, we were not given anything close to an honest picture of Walker while he was a candidate - in essence, we were sold a product with plenty of false marketing. The recall gave people a chance to actually make an informed decision this time... or at least, that was the idea. Instead we just got new barrages of misinformation by Walker outspending Barrett 8 to 1 (majority of it from out-of-state) on a host of misleading or false advertising. The entire process was an attempt by Big Labor to strong arm an elected official out of office for daring to try and limit its power. Big Labor lost. *facepalm* This was as grassroots as politics gets. Yes, the unions were against Walker - but they didn't lead the charge, their preferred candidate was not picked, and they are not why the recall happened. EDIT: I know that the media narrative for this was "Walker vs Labor" - but you know full well how crappy the media is. Their narrative was not the reality of things for anyone I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 The entire process was an attempt by Big Labor to strong arm an elected official out of office for daring to try and limit its power. Big Labor lost. Yes, because obviously we should lump everyone in along party lines and further entrench the mentality of 'us vs them'. Since you label yourself a Democrat, should you be asked to defend every single decision piece of legislation passed by any one who has ever labeled themselves a Democrat? Let's evaluate individuals on the merits of their own ideas and actions rather than lumping them into a label. Bad Valek! Where do I even start? Big Labor? There's a nice lump. Yes, I do get the right to lump every Republican together because in the end, what the top represents is what the bottom gets. The entire government system is based on essentializations strictly because of the fact the uninformed aren't even aware that there CAN be MORE than two parties. If you want to pretend individual merit matters (as most Americans do), you can be my guest and go for it. Individualism is just one of those things inbred into America that stops people from believing in social contracts and understanding they didn't get ANYWHERE by themselves. You can work your *** off day and night and get nowhere. I used to work 3 jobs! 3! I know something about not having opportunity because someone else decides their family members are more important. After World War II, America experienced some of its highest rates of taxations, on EVERYONE. All across the board. Republicans everywhere are removing "Big Labor" from any of its power so companies and corporations can have tax breaks while the average citizens share the majority of the work load and the expenses. The average citizen alone cannot repair the infrastructure of this nation that the original taxation rates did. Corporations/Companies want less government for the same reason crooks want less cops. I'm not a fan of government anymore than I am of society in general. But it's a lesser of two evils because it's all where the money is: Government and Business. Both are screwed up. Want to talk about deregulation? San Francisco, turn of the century. No government regulations, ideal libertarian style living. Earthquakes hit and everyone was screwed from lack of building codes, etc...no back up systems...nothing. Individualism. Gets you nowhere. Somewhere along the way we got this screwed up idea on how "greatness" was achieved. This prepackaged symbol of money. It's paper. It measures...what? Who decides how this money proves the worth of a person or what the person has achieved to get it? Just the people who already have it. If it wasn't for government and "Big Labor" there would be no balance. We'll just have to wait and see where globalization eventually takes us as a country. We can sit here and yammer all day about who's right and who's wrong. The only thing that matters is how many souls we can collect to our side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 Yes, young padawan, you are learning well... Now, take your place as my Arguing Apprentice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 Well that certainly got away from the Walker recall. Where do I even start? Big Labor? There's a nice lump. Yes' date=' I do get the right to lump every Republican together because in the end, what the top represents is what the bottom gets. The entire government system is based on essentializations strictly because of the fact the uninformed aren't even aware that there CAN be MORE than two parties.[/quote'] Valek, I think most people realize there can be more than two parties. The fact that we still have a two party system has less to do with an 'uninformed' public and more to do with the size and scope of the current federal government and the amount of power held there by the two parties, which more or less squeezes out any up and comers. The Libertarian party is gaining ground, though, and is currently the largest 'third party' in the US precisely because it is the antithesis of big government. Also, Big Labor is hardly a lump. Unions have very similar interests politically, siding with larger government policies as those policies mean more money for them. Given the current state of turmoil in the Republican Party, it is a FAR bigger stretch to lump all Republicans together. Why would there be so much trouble currently with party realignment on issues if every Republican was in sync? Just compare Mitt Romney to Ron Paul. If you want to pretend individual merit matters (as most Americans do)' date=' you can be my guest and go for it. Individualism is just one of those things inbred into America that stops people from believing in social contracts and understanding they didn't get ANYWHERE by themselves. You can work your *** off day and night and get nowhere. I used to work 3 jobs! 3! I know something about not having opportunity because someone else decides their family members are more important. [/quote'] You brought up your own personal experience here, so I don't want this to come across as a personal attack. To say you aren't getting anywhere, you have to define where it is you are trying to get to. Working three jobs means you are getting three paychecks, which I would say is getting somewhere, especially at a time when many people can't even find one job. If you feel that is not enough money to progress you to your goals, then it is time to reevaluate your plan of attack. Ultimately, though, a person's position is completely determined through a person's own decisions and actions. Individualism is alive and well. Trying to convince yourself otherwise is just trying to take responsibility out of the equation. Also, the only valid social contract is the non-aggression principle. Everything else is just someone trying to get something for nothing. After World War II' date=' America experienced some of its highest rates of taxations, on EVERYONE. All across the board. Republicans everywhere are removing "Big Labor" from any of its power so companies and corporations can have tax breaks while the average citizens share the majority of the work load and the expenses. The average citizen alone cannot repair the infrastructure of this nation that the original taxation rates did. Corporations/Companies want less government for the same reason crooks want less cops. I'm not a fan of government anymore than I am of society in general. But it's a lesser of two evils because it's all where the money is: Government and Business. Both are screwed up.[/quote'] Ok, you started to ramble some here. Corporations have no control over your money unless you either choose to spend it on their products and services, or you elect government officials who decide to tax your money away and give it to those corporations. Wealth is not some finite resource that those evil fat cats are keeping from you... it is an infinite resource. A company making a boatload of cash, or a wealthy CEO cutting himself a fat bonus check, has absolutely nothing to do with your potential to earn wealth. Don't hate on others for being successful; it just looks like jealousy. The only one who can impede your goals is the government, who have the ability to take whatever wealth, property, or rights you have by force. If we are choosing the lesser of two evils here... I know who I'm siding with. Want to talk about deregulation? San Francisco' date=' turn of the century. No government regulations, ideal libertarian style living. Earthquakes hit and everyone was screwed from lack of building codes, etc...no back up systems...nothing. Individualism. Gets you nowhere.[/quote'] Sorry, I'm not sure what you are saying here. An earthquake destroying buildings is not a sign that we need a larger government influence. Somewhere along the way we got this screwed up idea on how "greatness" was achieved. This prepackaged symbol of money. It's paper. It measures...what? Who decides how this money proves the worth of a person or what the person has achieved to get it? Just the people who already have it. If it wasn't for government and "Big Labor" there would be no balance. We'll just have to wait and see where globalization eventually takes us as a country. We can sit here and yammer all day about who's right and who's wrong. The only thing that matters is how many souls we can collect to our side. Again, this came across as rambling a bit, so I'm not sure what your point was. Paper money is just one way of measuring wealth, and it has its uses versus carrying around gold bars. Ron Paul has introduced legislation calling for the idea of competing currencies here in the US, which I am a big fan of. So... yeah, uh, Walker recall and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 *sits back and watches* Come on, Valek, hit him back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted June 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 People realize there are more than two parties, but where they lie uninformed is the myth that when you vote for another party, you're helping the "evil" party by not voting for the "good" party (whatever that's supposed to mean...) No one's squeezing out any up and comers...the goal is to get noticed, right? To get votes? Isn't that the libertarian way of thinking? If you can't get what you want, you have no one to blame but yourself? The Libertarian party is practically being hijacked by the Tea Party the same way the Reform party was hijacked by other right-wing nuts. That is, this negative education of the general populace by the general populace (paid for and endorsed by political action committees which are paid for and endorsed by people with money, aka corporations and government) which constantly compare any new political parties as being part of or similar to either the Republican or Democratic agenda. This is why I won't compare Mitt Romney to Ron Paul. I might insult Ron Paul, but not to the point of comparing him to Mitt Romney. Union interests are about making certain companies cannot take advantage of the people that work for them. Unions as a generalization are an excellent idea, but there are unions that have become as corrupt as the corporations they attempt to stand against. I will tie in my point on money here, as this is not about weight of paper versus weight of gold. Both are simply symbols/objects that have been given social meaning, they are social constructs, intended to convey some value. Historically, this was meant to do away with the barter system and create a solvent economic system that was universal. Now it's difficult to discern the measure of the job that is being done because everyone wants to assign a different value to the symbols looking for some tangible output to apply an intangible barter when there is no longer a barter system. Products is not equal to output in some cases, but in the process of creation, etc...this is where unions attempt to step in and say "You can't tell these people what quality of life they should have based on how much paper you got in exchange for their time and any risk associated with the labor they performed for you". When I refer to social contracts, especially for libertarians (the root word here being Liberty, especially as pertaining to individualism) I often refer to Mills' Harm Principle. Aggression is a direct act of causing harm, but there are other ways to cause harm indirectly. I urge anyone associating themselves with the Libertarian party to read Mills. Corporations have a GREAT deal of power over your money and this ties in with social contract. Corporations through the government gained great access via infrastructure (raised through high taxes after World War II, you will note, that recently our bridges, etc...roads...have begun to crumble) to people. When was the last time you noticed anyone who didn't use an automobile, who didn't go to a grocery store, who didn't use public facilities, who didn't...see where that's going? This is why no one person exists alone. If anyone can, congratulations, I will find them their own property next to Walden's Pond. However, they should abstain from having sex with Emerson's wife. CEO cut himself a big fat bonus check you say? He happened to be in the right place at the right time? Well, let me ask you this: If a man hoards cadavers in his basement, he's crazy. A lady with a house full of cats we consider crazy. But, a man with a ton of gold or green paper locked up in his house is a role model? No, he's helping impoverish the nation itself by refusing to help others. Let's stop putting people like this on the cover of Time Life or Fortune 500. I'm not jealous. I'm tired of people feeling like the rest of the world doesn't exist/isn't their problem/etc... The San Francisco example is an example of why government regulation is GOOD. Those people lived next to a community that may have had a CEO with a fat bonus paycheck next to them. His bonus alone could have rebuilt the entire city. But it's their own fault for not figuring out how to properly build...shame there was no government employee who did exactly that...enforced proper building codes to stop some schmuck from coming through and saying he knew how to build for a cost. Government is about protection sometimes. It's not all bad, just as all corporations aren't bad. As far as Walker's recall, maybe if people from out of state (*cough*koch*cough*) cared as much about people in general as they did about paying to make sure a goon stayed in office to do their bidding, maybe government and society in general would be better off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demiterracotta Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Just leaving this here for everyone involved in the thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-Sgvq98mjc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted June 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Just leaving this here for everyone involved in the thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-Sgvq98mjc *tags Pali* Your turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hell no. I was not kidding before - I am sick of politics. You want to discuss non-economic, non-political philosophy, or science, or pretty much anything else, I'm game. But my entire damned state has spent the last year and a half debating politics, and I am done with it, at least for a while. I am sick of choosing between the incompetent and the insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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