Boy Kid Wonder Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Alright, so far we have that avatars can't be elder/leader because: A. Overpower B. RP conflicts Most avatars go Knight. Because of Tribunal being the way it is, I doubt avatars will be allowed in Tribunal. Teurlain you said it'd be a big deal about elder/leader responsibilities. But if you have had a Knight under Raargant's control, you should know that he does not allow alliance with anyone that has evil or has the chance of evil. So that really rules out that problem. Having to hunt neutrals due to certain vendettas is a difficult problem, but no where does it say you have to kill them. You can pound them down, let them run away. Take standard and be done with it. As far as overpowered goes, yes they are strong. The strongest in the game actually. But considering what vampires can do, its obvious that vampires are slightly below avatar. Not that far, but they are below. The current vampires are top notch players. Messa, Marti, and Sirican are all very skilled. Uhril is good, but not seen often. So that leaves 4 vampires to 0 avatars. If avatars are so strong, why doesn't anyone make one? Once you get avatar and T in a cabal there is nothing more to strive for. You can't get E or L so you have no chance of running anything, whereas vampires, easily just as strong, get E and L. Having spoken to other players about this, they feel the same way. That vampires and avatars are just as strong as one another, whether or not the code says so or not. Most elite players go for evil. Because evil is more feared and you get remember alot easier. Now not in all cases, but in the majority, the more skilled player will be controlling the vampire. I have seen Dyendas fight Martineius. Not to pick on either one, but the fights have been very close. But in the end it leads to either Marti/Dyendas getting away, or Dyendas' death. This could be highly based on cabal skills, but I think, not POSITIVE, that Marti was Elder at this time. Which easily swayed it in his favor. Giving vampires Elder and Leader powers makes them stronger than avatars at T. The vamp skills/spells + E/L skills is alot to handle. This is my argument, please post maturely, contribue to the thread. Nothing stupid that has a chance of derailing. Thank you. --- BKW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorCleric Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 The reason why these posts get derailed is because we are not aloud to talk about qraces and qclasses in detail on the open forum, so people can't have a mature, rational, complete discussion on the matter at hand. The best place to take these are to the Prayer Forum, where specifics can be given if you have specifics that you already know. The best analogy I've heard for qclasses/qraces was by Viri, it's two actually. They are like sports cars, you can get them going really fast, but if you make a mistake, it's magnified big time. And Of all the Vamps/Avatars that have been, how many do you remember? That being said. Elephant's eat mashed patatoes. WC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 I'll bite. First of all, I talked with Iru about this before: What he said is that technically, avatars aren't 'forbidden' from being elder/leader, as in that its not a game rule. But it is a very, very strongly held custom, that won't be broken without very good reason. A) RP conflicts. It's true that Raargant, as of now, doesn't allow alliances with organizations that are evil. But it needs to be remembered, this is comparatively speaking, a very short 'blip' on the history of Knights (not to mention the other cabals where an Avatar could theoretically join). Before Raargant, Knights could ally; after Raargant, Knights could ally. And who knows? Maybe Raargant will even change his mind if he's presented with a good argument. Whether or not Knight can or cannot create alliances is not set in stone: whether or not avatars can do politics with evils, is. And it's a matter of dedication as well. Cabal Elders/Leaders are expected to dedicate everything they have and are to the cabal's well being. Avatars are expected to dedicate the same to Irumeru and Purity. Cabal goals are VERY rarely purely compatible with Avatar goals, which means one or the other, inevitably, WILL be compromised. Balance issues. I can't discuss this in depth, but suffice to say, you simply cannot compare Avatars to Vampires, because it is comparing apples to oranges. Vampires are all 'the same' in what their stats are, what their maximum power level is, etc. etc. etc. Avatars, by their very nature, are different, because of what precisely avataring does to people, and the power gain can be different as well. Suffice to say this: Avatars can be MUCH stronger (not 'marginally') than vampires, but more importantly, also the rest of the pbase as well. You can't just balance 'avatars' against vampires, because avatars aren't identical, and their strength varies based on class and race. And that's all I am going to say regarding Avatars. Regarding vampires, there are MANY banes to a vampire: what real banes does an avatar have? None and nothing. Ask Sirican how much he enjoys fighting Crisnae, for example? Vampires, if you mess up, can easily crash and burn (like WC quoted Viri, the race car analogy); this isn't true for avatars, an advantage they enjoy over vampires. Simply put, avatars don't merely have the potential to be much stronger than vampires, but are also, flat out BETTER than vampires, for other reasons. I would strongly, strongly disagree that avatar T is weaker than vampire E/L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Greased Weasel Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Ooooo Oooo Ooo I remeber Gorath...I still wake up screaming at night some times...and Elloran cause I was a vamp at the time and he stomped me like a fat kid stomps smaller less fat children at a birthday party while he rampages like godzilla on his way to cake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magick Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 ROFL Interesting analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 I see an alliance with watcher. But knights have had vendettas and pacts with them before. So who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FatMike Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 watchers kill avatars, hard to ally with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Avatars cannot be cabal E/L Vampires can be cabal E/L Imm can have mort cabal E/L why are avatars hated so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Avatars really are that damn buff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Avatar is nothing without the right class. Not all avatars are going to be "that damn buff". I really don't see what holds them back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Well, then judgement would have to be on a case by case basis, as opposed to a blanket ruling, which is much more easy and fair. IE, say, ogre warrior avatar asks, "Why can the human warrior avatar get E but not me? I'm much better than him!" We would have to, under your proposition, say, "Because you are a much nastier combo than him." (And yes, I know what Iru says about humans). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 That would seem fair to me. Ogre avatar caps at I, for that matter lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teralis Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 Hmmm this is funny because I allways thought crusader was far stronger then a Avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 crusader/vamp is a QCLASS...they will almost always be the same (crusaders varying on the obvious) avatar is a RACE and can be any class. it helps some, but not others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teralis Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 I know the difference between the two, having had neither a crusader or an avatar (besides my hopefull now) my opinions are based of those Ive battled having killed both ive only been killed by crusaders never an avatar. Which leads me to the question on why Avatar cannot be leader or even elder in certain cases, but a crusader/vamp can? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 well good combo avatars are hard to get.... in fact, i dont think there has ever been an ogre avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorCleric Posted April 23, 2006 Report Share Posted April 23, 2006 I'm fairly sure there was... now you've got me checking over my old sources... WC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 I think Parnten was an avatar. Dunlith, back in 1.0, was a famous ogre avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 I'm almost positive Parnten wasn't an avatar....and Dunlith must've been before I started in 1.0 But yea.......so two ogre avatars, ever. (IF Parnten was) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raargant Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 Avatars aren't handed out that much. I think Parnten was Derav's, we can check with him, but I'm fairly sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boy Kid Wonder Posted April 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 Parnten was Derav's. Not avatar though. Elloran was his only avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 That's what I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-3000 Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 Even I once tried to get an avatar. The waiting (for vain) took it's toll so heavily that I quitted playing for some time. For note, I made quests and sheep, but nothing happened after all. Shortly said, it's damn hard to get an avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zrothum Posted April 24, 2006 Report Share Posted April 24, 2006 I dunno, the two avatars I've played both got it fairly quick/easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.