The-Nameless Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangelion Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 12/25/11 Heroism no longer allows guard captains. Changed several months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflayer Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Monk gladiator is VERY powerful with trusted level cabal skills. Even MORE so if they achieve leader rank. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Changed several months ago. Ah, thank you. Regardless, I maintain that paladins are given a rather short stick when it comes to cabal choices. While for various other classes to join a certain cabal will limit them a bit (WM rangers and thunderstorm, Tribs and area attacks in cities, etc.), paladins are the only class I can think of that constantly have to choose between being able to use one of their best class skills and one of their best cabal skills no matter what cabal they go for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindflayer Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Barbarian Warmaster Rangers can still use thumderstorm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangelion Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Ah' date=' thank you. Regardless, I maintain that paladins are given a rather short stick when it comes to cabal choices. While for various other classes to join a certain cabal will limit them a bit (WM rangers and thunderstorm, Tribs and area attacks in cities, etc.), paladins are the only class I can think of that constantly have to choose between being able to use one of their best class skills and one of their best cabal skills no matter what cabal they go for.[/quote'] I've heard Herald paladins are pretty buff. But in all seriousness, that's a pretty valid point. Granted, I think a portion of it stems from the fact that paladins are one of the most balanced classes in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Barbarian Warmaster Rangers can still use thumderstorm Suspected as much, but wasn't sure, thanks. I think a portion of it stems from the fact that paladins are one of the most balanced classes in the game. Entirely possible, but I tend to think it's more a combination of oversight when it came to cabal design (both Knight and Justice/Trib have always been charmy-based) and a sense that it's not a big issue - which is a sense I agree with. Paladins still rock, caballed or otherwise... I just don't like that the boost they get from being caballed is smaller than the boost any other class gets picking those cabals, particularly given how limited their cabal selections are. Good melees/rogues can go Knight/Trib/WM, good c/cs can go Knight/Trib/Savant, paladins can only go Knight/Trib - yes, I'm discounting Herald in all of these, sorry Elrozin - and when one looks at neuts or evils, Watcher/Nexus take Knight's place in the listings while Syndi is added on as a bonus to all of them. EDITED (more than once, sorry ): In essence, my gripe is thus: paladins have the most limited cabal choices in the game of the base classes, and get less out of picking those cabals than any other class that can join them because of a conflict between a major class skill and a major cabal skill (I say major based on the fact that an uncaballed paladin always has heroism up and a non-paladin Trib/Knight always has their charmy - both are very useful powers). Not the biggest issue by even the reckoning of the guy bringing it up... but it does annoy me. I say we just let DKs and paladins stop being bystanders and get involved in the case of Might v Magic by letting them join Savant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinblades713 Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Herald isn't a cabal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Herald isn't a cabal. In terms of how FL cabals generally interact - forming alliances and waging war - no, it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Entirely possible, but I tend to think it's more a combination of oversight when it came to cabal design (both Knight and Justice/Trib have always been charmy-based) and a sense that it's not a big issue - which is a sense I agree with. Paladins still rock, caballed or otherwise... I just don't like that the boost they get from being caballed is smaller than the boost any other class gets picking those cabals, particularly given how limited their cabal selections are. Good melees/rogues can go Knight/Trib/WM, good c/cs can go Knight/Trib/Savant, paladins can only go Knight/Trib - yes, I'm discounting Herald in all of these, sorry Elrozin - and when one looks at neuts or evils, Watcher/Nexus take Knight's place in the listings while Syndi is added on as a bonus to all of them. EDIT: In essence, my gripe is thus: paladins have the most limited cabal choices in the game of the base classes, and get less out of picking those cabals than any other class that can join them. Not a major issue by even the reckoning of the guy bringing it up... but it does annoy me. I say we just let DKs and paladins stop being bystanders and get involved in the case of Might v Magic by letting them join Savant! Which other cabal do you suggest for them to be able to join that would not conflict the paladin RP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 To be honest, my suggestion of letting them join Savant is mostly in jest - not only would it be tricky balance-wise, but I do think that RP-wise it's rather tenuous as well for either paladins or DKs, as while both use prayers/magic, neither has focused their training as extensively on them as a real c/c does. I'd much prefer heroism to allow cabal charmies but still not allow the paladin to be grouped with anything else, including non-cabal charmies. The RP justification for heroism not allowing groups makes sense, but I think that an RP argument could be made that cabal charmies are NOT groupmates in the normal sense, meaning people who you happen to be traveling with for a time for money/convenience/pleasure, but instead a cabal charmy is a soldier in arms every bit as dedicated to the cause as the paladin himself. There's nothing unheroic about fighting alongside such a comrade. P.S. I did not mean this topic to be a thread derail... my apologies. This'll be my last post on the topic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 To be honest, my suggestion of letting them join Savant is mostly in jest - not only would it be tricky balance-wise, but I do think that RP-wise it's rather tenuous as well for either paladins or DKs, as while both use prayers/magic, neither has focused their training as extensively on them as a real c/c does. I'd much prefer heroism to allow cabal charmies but still not allow the paladin to be grouped with anything else, including non-cabal charmies. The RP justification for heroism not allowing groups makes sense, but I think that an RP argument could be made that cabal charmies are NOT groupmates in the normal sense, meaning people who you happen to be traveling with for a time for money/convenience/pleasure, but instead a cabal charmy is a soldier in arms every bit as dedicated to the cause as the paladin himself. There's nothing unheroic about fighting alongside such a comrade. P.S. I did not mean this topic to be a thread derail... my apologies. This'll be my last post on the topic here. Both DKs and Paladins will be very powerful (read OP) in Savant. Also the RP reasoning looks a bit shabby, with Paladins devoted to goodness more than magic and DKs being way too melee based. As for your charmie reasoning, I completely agree with it. Charmies are not really a groupmate, in the fullest sense of the word. I think paladins should be allowed to use charmies while in heroism. That being said, IMHO, thread derailments that are productive are OK ;p What's there to discuss about cabal numbers anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 What's there to discuss about cabal numbers anyway. A good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iyorvin Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 At least if we let dk/pally in Savant they might start to have a chance against current WM abilities and combos. It's not a big surprise Savant is almost always empty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 All that's needed are a couple of strong Savants and some smart diplomacy and things could turn around pretty fast. Not saying it'll happen, but you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iyorvin Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 My problem with Savant is since the introduction of BLM a portion of the Savant combo's became extremely hard to play. Just for example, invoker vs magic resis race anti mage blm with WM abilities........pretty scary. But the invoker argument can actually go beyond that, but there are very few savant combo's that can hold their own much less be strong vs this current WM skill setup. I'm not saying there are no combo's left, just that to be strong your choices become much more limited then they would in another cabal. I personally believe that is why Savant has such a hard time sustaining any real success. Yes I have played a Savant some what recently, as an invoker. I used to be an ok invoker and know most of the tricks, but I found I had to gather hundreds of healing consumables to even be competitive, which just isn't the case with any other class. Now I'm off topic! This was supposed to be just about Savant setup, so I'll elaborate by saying as well that to get some strong Savant combo's going out of the 4 big combo's I can really think of, 2 are remorts........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 The reliance on consumables has gone up for everybody, not just invokers, but I do agree that it hit them extra hard. Not a fan of it myself, really, but... *shrugs* It also may have less to do with combos, and more to do with the abundance of rares currently in place. Not sure when your invoker was, though, so if it was beforehand disregard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iyorvin Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 The reliance on consumables has gone up for everybody, not just invokers, but I do agree that it hit them extra hard. Not a fan of it myself, really, but... *shrugs* It also may have less to do with combos, and more to do with the abundance of rares currently in place. Not sure when your invoker was, though, so if it was beforehand disregard. This is in reference to what change/changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Thread one. Thread two. Short version: rare count is much higher than previously. Since melees are more eq dependent for their powerspikes, this gives them a greater gain in power than c/cs get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 At least if we let dk/pally in Savant they might start to have a chance against current WM abilities and combos. It's not a big surprise Savant is almost always empty! When I had my last dwarven blademaster in barbarian I thought no savant could kill me. Then Hit&Run rolled a battlemage, and despite getting wasted many times, he managed to pull it of and kill not only my character, but the leader at that time as well - Svenik. Kristian (Bali's BMG) pulled out a very similar stunt recently as well. The tides turn, that's the natural way of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iyorvin Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 When I had my last dwarven blademaster in barbarian I thought no savant could kill me. Then Hit&Run rolled a battlemage, and despite getting wasted many times, he managed to pull it of and kill not only my character, but the leader at that time as well - Svenik. Kristian (Bali's BMG) pulled out a very similar stunt recently as well. The tides turn, that's the natural way of things. Yeah, notice both were BMG? It's very limited in what will have success in Savant, and BMG is certainly one of those cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iyorvin Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 And I challenge someone to roll a voker and prove me wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0xx Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 And I challenge someone to roll a voker and prove me wrong! Yes, invoker against blademaster is a tough fight, and against a blademaster in gladiator it's even tougher, not impossible though. If I have to place a bet on a fight between Covarrubias and Fliblin though, I would put my money on the dirty owl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Nameless Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Dagoneto was the only blm I really had trouble with when I played Pildo. You and Scholin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRins Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Any chance a passerby can get an updated count on who's hot and who's not? I itch to... you know. Have a couple shinies and spend my in game time developing my ulcer further until I shuffle off my mortal coil because everyone knows a magikarp like me can only use splash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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