A good omen?

[kaboomer]

Did I get that right: Monk? (Y/N)>y

Rolling stats for half-elf monk.:

Max: Str: 19 Int: 21 Wis: 20 Dex: 22 Con: 18

Cur: Str: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14

[17] Cmds: help, end, roll, add, rem>

#read roller.tin

#OK: 1 ACTION LOADED.

#OK: 3 ALIASES LOADED.

rolleron

Roller is now on, Max roll set to 25.

roll

Rolling stats for half-elf monk.:

Max: Str: 19 Int: 21 Wis: 20 Dex: 22 Con: 18

Cur: Str: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14

Target reached!

Roller is now off. Variables reset.

[25] Cmds: help, end, roll, add, rem>

[Trick]

I feel the same way when I get a quick max lol.

[Kyzarius]

I still do not see the point in having to roll at all. If you know what you are doing, you write a script. If you do not know, then you suffer. So only the new people really ever have a chance to be nerfed by foolishly accepting a bad roll.

[f0xx]

I still do not see the point in having to roll at all.

[Pali]

is more applicable to many of us gamers.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I still do not see the point in having to roll at all. If you know what you are doing' date=' you write a script. If you do not know, then you suffer. So only the new people really ever have a chance to be nerfed by foolishly accepting a bad roll.[/quote']

=

Beat that horse, beat it! Come on, Michael Jackson, beat it!

Plenty of resources available to ask about that rolling system. Forums, newbie chat, prayer, help files to guide people to get answers...

RE Kaboomer: You take that monk and WHIP some candy ***! Whip it, I say, smack the left cheek, then the right cheek, make it jiggle, make it bounce, rub it a little and then smack it again! Let them know who's the monk! Show them SEXY stance.

[Celerity]

Valek, none of those methods are available to a new player. New players have no knowledge of or access to the forums. They don't know about the good rolls thread. Help files don't work in character generation. There is no access to the prayer forum or to the prayer channel either.

The only way you can successfully get through that part on the first try is to have somebody who plays the game guiding you through it. Even if you are familiar with rolling systems, they don't apply to FL's case, as warriors never dump stats into str first. You always fill out con/wis/int and then put the rest in str/dex. It doesn't matter what class you play, you will do it the same way every time. You also don't know that the stats will be maxed eventually, and so a new player may think that these stats will be locked once chosen. It is very counter-intuitive.

Now, assuming you figure it out (after making a failed character, somehow figuring out that your stats are messed up, and being willing to do it again instead of just giving up), the question becomes why would such a system exist?

Does it serve a balance reason? I think not, since every combination puts the stats in the same order. The only balance difference comes between true newbies and people who have made more than one character, and that isn't the kind of balance differentiation that we want.

Does it serve an RP reason? No, because it does not offer any distinctiveness to characters—again, everyone maxes the same stats. You might be RPing a sickly old man, but you will for sure have a maxed 20 con value. It is sheer foolishness not to in our heavy PK system.

Does it provide fun? No, it is boring and typically automated by vet players.

The only defense of the rolling system that I have ever heard is that it is there for purely nostalgic reasons. If you must have it because old D&D games use rolling systems, you may as well make it mean something. However, the far easier and newbie-friendly (as well as vet-friendly) way of fixing it would just to give base stats to combos. If you are concerned with pure nostalgia, we could add random 14.4k lag spikes as well. We could also remove color. Those changes would be about as fun as rolling.

This is very high on my list of things that need to go because it is something that directly interferes with new players and wastes a ton of everybody's time.

The horse has been 'beaten' for good reason.

[f0xx]

I like rolling.

[Celerity]

Use the command in game then after character gen.

[Aulian]

Celerity just bitch slapped y'all into place.

+1

[f0xx]

You guys love making a big fuss out of small things.

The last think a new player should worry about is a low roll...

[Celerity]

While it is nice that you like the rolling system and think that it doesn't interfere with players, it doesn't mean much without knowing why you think so.

I mean, it is perfectly acceptable to say you like lag spikes or you want to play in monochrome, for example. That is fine, but you need to make the case why that is better for the game.

Please tell us more.

I do think it is a big deal, and I do think it is a major turn-off to players--with my reasons laid out in the last post.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Anyone can figure something out if they want to. The fact you are shown a roller should make you say "What's this?" and "What can I do with it?" Figuring something out on your own makes it mean more to you. If something is worth doing or having, it's worth struggling for. People need to start thinking from the point they see the roller to the way they begin examining this game. The paradigms it will set up will be greater.

I don't need to conjure up multiple points beyond that. If you want to examine it from a matrix point of view, knock yourselves out. Now, I'll just go to work and in the morning I will see a post of something like: "But the player base would be bigger if we got rid of the roller and gave everyone their max stats!".

[Kyzarius]

Valek, there is no way to figure out the roller other than to hope what you settle with is good. All it does is punish a new player, by making their first character have a chance to end up with nerfed stats.

If someone dials our mud on a mud site, which is pretty much our only exposure to someone hunting this genre, they will have to deal with this as a first impression to our mud. You can call it a dead horse all you want, that still doesnt change or attempt to refute the facts of the issue.

[Celerity]

Now' date=' I'll just go to work and in the morning I will see a post of something like: "But the player base would be bigger if we got rid of the roller and gave everyone their max stats!".[/quote']

You should know me better by now...you should know exactly what kind of post is coming.

The fact you are shown a roller should make you say "What's this?" and "What can I do with it?"

Although I kind of said this in my last post, there are a couple of questions to be asked when encountering an unfamiliar mechanic (this goes for the staff and players both):

1. What does it do?

2. How does it function?

and by extension, the result of first two:

3. How is it useful?

So, let's take a closer look:

What does the roller do and how does it function? It provides a number of points, by semi-random generation, that can be distributed among the different stats. There are only two variables at play here:

A. Time - the more time invested, the greater number of stat points available. Time is invested by hitting the enter key repeatedly.

B. Distribution - points may be put into different stats as the user sees fit. Since there is a clear advantage to putting in the stats in a single order (con/wis/int then str/dex), there is no effective variety in distribution, eliminating this variable except in the case that you are unaware of this preferred order (true newbie).

How is it useful? In light of those two variables, it can serve two purposes.

It first serves as a time sink, encouraging a user to spend more time as an investment in a higher starting stat pool. Since greater stats are uniformly better than lesser stats, this is indisputably valuable to a player. It is the reason we want high rolls. The time sink portion has largely been circumvented due to rolling scripts (no human interaction needed) and a bias towards higher numbers.

Second, it allows for diversity in build and character development.

You can specialize in certain stats for a competitive advantage, maximizing your build strength. Unfortunately, since there is one single build, there is no diversity.

You can also distribute stats in such a way as to reflect your character's RP mechanics. Unfortunately, since there is no link in FL between those five stats and RP, this is purely cosmetic. Moreover, it is invisible to other characters, removing any potential cosmetic benefit. It is also highly damaging to one's build strength. Therefore, this is also largely ignored and irrelevant.

As a result, we can safely determine that it has no effect on diversity, serving only its function as a time sink.

-

The question then becomes:

How is a time sink useful?

Games themselves are often categorized as time sinks. The general idea is that you spend time learning the mechanic, invest time and energy, and collect on the gains. Preferably, all of this is fun.

The roller really suffers here. Learning the mechanic itself has two components. First learning the command syntax and then learning what the benefits are of your stat investments. The command syntax is not particularly friendly and has no accessible documentation or instructions, but it can generally be figured out. The benefits of the stat investments in FL are highly counter-intuitive, as I explained before. Since this isn't usually learned until a character has been completed, along with some degree of time investment, this can be very damaging to newbies. Neither the syntax nor learning the benefits are very fun, but those never are.

The time/energy investment is similar to the case of training, just on a smaller scale. One can set up a script to automate it, do it manually, or mostly ignore it. No matter how the roller/training is approached, it is repetitive and can't be considered fun, but the build costs of ignoring them motivate people to get them done. This is also known as grinding.

-

The problem comes out not in the existence of time sinks, but how they are employed. A good time sink should be dynamic, engaging, and optional. That means it should provide some degree of diversity in the outcomes based on the user action (dynamism), require fun, stimulating player interaction (engaging), and not be the only option available.

The placement of the roller in character generation means it can't be avoided and it will have serious consequences on the character in the future. While it is largely a (nostalgic) formality for vets, it is a huge barrier to new players.

If you believe we should have a roller, there are steps that need to be taken, although they are not easy.

1. Intuitive stat distribution. A user should be able to derive (from clarity or available documentation) where stats should go. This is currently not true.

2. Multiple build options. There should be one more than one avenue for stat distribution. Different allocations should provide distinct, yet balanced character differences. This is currently not true.

3. Multiple character options. The distribution of the stats should have an effect on the character itself, reflecting RP. This is currently not true.

4. Engaging. The rolling process should consist more of logical inferences and less of a single key stroke grind. The time and energy portion should be interactive and require thought, not a single, repetitive mechanical motion.

If those four things can be done, I'd support the existence of a roller, even for newbies. But since none of them are, the roller is heavily detrimental to the game.

Personally, noting the difficulties of code development we have here, I find it much more viable to get rid of the roller. A simple, uncreative alternative would be to give combos something like max -5 for stats, perhaps variable based on class and race or exp penalty.

[EyeSeeU]

SEE the post above me? That is brilliant. I am glad you are apart of this community, because you are awesome. I could not agree with you more.

[Hegemon]

If D&D has a rolling system, respect tradition imho.

[f0xx]

While it is nice that you like the rolling system and think that it doesn't interfere with players, it doesn't mean much without knowing why you think so.

I mean, it is perfectly acceptable to say you like lag spikes or you want to play in monochrome, for example. That is fine, but you need to make the case why that is better for the game.

Please tell us more.

I never said I liked lag spikes, and to make a comparison between lag spikes and the roller system is a bit silly, even for a blond <3

Why do I like the rolling system? I like it for the same reason I like training and ranking - it makes me invest time in my character which on it's turn makes me attached to it.

Today's kids want to get everything NOW. They are not willing to spend time learning and improving. Please do not accept this type of thinking, it is very dangerous for a game like ours.

If you want something to gripe about then gripe about our broken system that is supposed to delete shelved characters. Gripe about the automated flee system. Gripe about not letting characters delete anymore, but let people make mistakes, for that is the only way they can improve.

[Kyzarius]

Did you even read her post Foxx.

Some people in this thread are discussing mechanics, others just trying to shut people down with half flames that offer nothing to the conversation.

Why is it that whenever anyone discusses the removal or changing of old out dated mechanics, someone always has to label it as complaining, and then proceeds to tell us to shut up.

Cel wrote a a very good post, with numerous valid points that could be discussed. I happen to agree with her completly. You insult her with a disparraging blonde comments, try to relate the rest of the discussion to "kids these days" even though we are both older than you.

Your point was already refuted in Cel's post. The roller adds absolutly nothing to the game but a time sink that hurts new players, and is totally skipped via automation by any vet.

This is a discussion forum, not a shut the hell up everything you say is complaining, forum.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I've completely understood where Celerity has been coming from. I don't think anyone understands where Foxx and I are coming from. There are two ways to think about this and neither way is wrong.

I apologize, firstly, to Celerity for the comment about the "doomsday" of the player base growth/size/loss. That was actually aimed at Kyzarius, not you.

I'm a passionate person and it gets in my way sometimes, a flaw I recognize, but can't always see coming with my current set of stressors.

Now, I agree, the stat roller could use some additions to make it more indulgent to the environment and the character itself. I'm always up for making something better, but I'm incredibly attached to the stat roller and will always firmly believe anything that could promote critical thinking should be built upon, rather than removed, such as your incredible Integrated Paths post.

There are help files available on stats and clarity can be had, but, I must agree, it's AFTER the first character is rolled that some of these documents are made available. I know they're not as clear as they can be (don't look to me for clarity, as I'm often told I have none ), but this could be used as another chance for critical thinking. I'll always be one of those people who believe that if you want something to have value, people should have to earn it, want it, and continue to strive to be better.

It was, after all, you yourself who at one time said something along the lines of having beaten the game. It's understandable to feel that you've done all there is to do at times. You could probably make the case that I'm crazy and don't have anything to contribute to this conversation at this point (I'm still lacking clarity, perhaps), but I'm willing to go out on a limb here and state that people need to make their own connections with ambiguity of their own. You never know who might actually teach us something.

[f0xx]

Did you even read her post Foxx.

Did you even read my post K?

Do you even play any more? The dozen of posts you've made lately are all whining and nothing constructive. You've been banned for them and for that you've produced even more whining on the FB page. Very mature.

Some people in this thread are discussing mechanics, others just trying to shut people down with half flames that offer nothing to the conversation.

Why is it that whenever anyone discusses the removal or changing of old out dated mechanics, someone always has to label it as complaining, and then proceeds to tell us to shut up.

Now that must be perhaps the most hypocritical thing to say...

You insult her with a disparraging blonde comments.

Lol, really? You've gotten older, but I see you refuse to grow up. Stop looking for a way to get offended. If I didn't know you I would think you are a muslim.

Your point was already refuted in Cel's post. The roller adds absolutly nothing to the game but a time sink that hurts new players, and is totally skipped via automation by any vet.

That is the sole point of the roller - to be a time sink. To make you invest time in your character so when you want to delete, it'll make you think twice. By your logic, why should we wait for cabal promotions too? They are time sinks as well. I suggest we all become elders the moment we join a cabal.

This is a discussion forum, not a shut the hell up everything you say is complaining, forum.

I can see you don't like people disagreeing with you, how about you try to discuss rather than telling me to shut up

[Kyzarius]

foxx, does flaming and trolling me make the roller a more valid piece of the game?

[The-Nameless]

I kinda have to agree that the rolling system only affects newer players. Anyone who has been here for a while accepts the facts that you will roll for 20 min til you get the best possible roll (via a script no newbie will have or know what to shoot for).

When I was a newbie I consistantly took a 35 to start because I simply did not know better. I did not even realize the forums existed for over a year.

[f0xx]

foxx' date=' does flaming and trolling me make the roller a more valid piece of the game?[/quote']

What do you mean by "valid" though?

And do you think that training and ranking are not important as well? After all they are time sinks too, you gain "nothing" from them.

If you are true to your logic and want to remove all elements that take time and give you "nothing", then why don't we just start at 50, with all skills mastered? Why don't we choose cabal at character creation and start at E? Why don't we even go further and pick our items at character creation?

Are you sure you even want to play FL and not CS?

The-Nameless, of course, learning how to roll (even if that means writing a script) is part of being newbie. Just like learning about the races and classes, sanctuary, weapon styles, timing and everything else you have to learn.

Why is everyone acting like newbies will only ever roll one character? Why is everyone even acting like a newbie will end up here without someone bringing him and holding his hand?

[Kyzarius]

The problem with the learning to roll argument, is in order to learn it you have to basically end up with your firsat charactar, your first impression of the game, being nerfed stat wise.

So we now have a game where, if you're a new player, your first character suffers from an unfair disadvantage that you have no way of knowing about.

If the roller actually required some kind of skill aside from "inside knowldge" then yeah, you have a point. As it is now though it only insures vets that new players will be even weaker.

That and it becomes another thing, like training, that really requires no in game skill whatso ever. Just a combination of inside knowledge and script writting.