Defenses

[The Forsaken]

I think I remember someone posting this a long time ago, but I can't seem to find it.

Which defenses are 'better'? Such as, is two handed better than parry? Shield block better than two handed? What about dodge? I'm sure dual parry is on the bottom, but what else?

[f0xx]

Ah, that's the kind of question I like.

I would like to also add, how does exactly dual wield and second/third/forth attack work?

A dual wielding warrior with all skills mastered doesn't always get eight attacks. Do second, third and forth attack work like a chain skill or are they independent from each other?

How does haste influence those? The general rule about haste is that it gives one more attack, but from my experience, a hasted warrior would averagely get much more attacks than an unhasted one.

[Celerity]

Riposte is on the bottom. Then it goes (if my memory is working!) dual parry>dodge>parry>two handed>shield block.

But it isn't linear. The defenses on the weak end are more affected by things like terrain, sight, hitroll, weapon class, weight, etc. But again, dodge will be more affected by terrain and parry by weapon class...so don't just think in terms of x is better than y.

From what I understand, there actually isn't much difference between two handed and shield block except if you are blind or that you can lose two defenses when you lose your weapon with two handed, and only one with shield block.

Basically, if you are outgeared completely, your shield is about the only reliable defense available, and even it won't be very good.

Dual wield has an effect on your parry/hit chance, although this may be completely negated when mastered? You can really notice it at 75%.

From my understanding, and again I may be wrong, but the multiple attack skills have a base chance to fire plus any modifier (such as dual wield, dex). So, for example, if your second attack fires 80% of the time, your third may fire 50% of the times that the 80% succeeds. If you pass both of those checks, you can try another 25% for a fourth attack. I'm sure the numbers for dual wield are lower...

So yes, a warrior has the potential for 8 attacks, but you aren't very likely to get those unless you are feral and/or hasted.

Feral (mini haste) and normal haste are just modifiers that increase the multiple attack probability and they give one extra base attack.

[f0xx]

Feral (mini haste) and normal haste are just modifiers that increase the multiple attack probability and they give one extra base attack.

Aha! That's what I was looking for.

Also, on multiple attacks, does that mean that if second attack doesn't fire, third and forth won't fire as well?

Also, which is considered first, dual wield or the attacks i.e. I get a roll for attacks on one weapon, then I get dual wield roll and attack roll for each attack on the second weapon?

[The Forsaken]

How is dodge affected by terrain? Great info Celerity

[jibber]

As far as I know, terrain has no effect on dodge unless you're a certain qclass in a certain qform. The things that affect dodge are:

1. Skill

2. Sight (unless you have battletrance)

3. Some other qclass skills

4. Weapon position

5. Luck

6. Hitroll

7. Some more qclass/qrace skills/forms

8. Werebeast bonus

9. Monk stances

10. And other bits and pieces you have no control over.

[L-A]

What Celerity said was true - but I believe it was changed so that all defenses were purely random in activation some time ago (by Virigoth if you want to get an idea of when...).

What I'm not sure of is if it was ever rolled back...

L-A

[f0xx]

What Celerity said was true - but I believe it was changed so that all defenses were purely random in activation some time ago (by Virigoth if you want to get an idea of when...).

What I'm not sure of is if it was ever rolled back...

L-A

Yes they are still random, dunno why you bring this up, noone asked or mentioned anything about the order in which they fire.

[L-A]

Yes they are still random' date=' dunno why you bring this up, noone asked or mentioned anything about the order in which they fire.[/quote']

Read the hierarchy above and just assumed.

LOL - just ignore me.

L-A

[Celerity]

Just for fun, the old defense order in the code:

* PARRY 0

* DUAL PARRY 1

* MONK FIRST PARRY 2

* MONK SECOND PARRY 3

* DODGE 4

* SHIELD BLOCK 5

* WEAPON BLOCK 6

* RIPOSTE 7

* BLINK 8

Things that can have an effect on dodge (that Jibber didn't list):

-feral race

-drunk

-level gap

-position (sleeping, etc.)

-being mounted

-GIMPed by IMMs

As far as I can tell, size and dex have no effect on the dodge formula.

Turns out terrain doesn't have an effect on dodge. But it certainly does have an effect on other melee skills.

f0xx:

You can get the order from the game pretty easily if you take into account that melee attacks are made as they are calculated. They are calculated in this order:

Primary first

Secondary first

Primary second

Secondary second

etc..

That means if you get a round like this:

Your slash hits

Your pierce hits

Your slash hits

Your slash hits

You know that your primary weapon (slash) fired three times, but your dual wield only fired once. By analyzing the order in which the slashes/pierces occur, you can see if third attack fires when second fails. By analyzing many rounds, you can see if the probability is different if using two weapons, two handed, or a single one-handed.

If you see a round when your secondary strikes before your primary, you know I'm wrong on the order.

Oh, and you must pass the dual wield proficiency check to get a chance at an attack roll...

[f0xx]

You are a well of knowledge Cel.

PS. Not to be confused with Mya's "knoledge"

[the_nightmare]

Mya know's best ;D

[L-A]

Since the 'people who know' seem to be here:

Does weapon/shield level factor into attacks in any way? Its something I've always wondered - apart from being hard to pop and costing more cps to 'modify', does the lvl of a weapon serve any in combat purpose?

Previously I've played MUDs where items were restriced to +/-5 ranks of their 'level' but that's not the case here...

L-A

[f0xx]

Does weapon/shield level factor into attacks in any way? Its something I've always wondered - apart from being hard to pop and costing more cps to 'modify', does the lvl of a weapon serve any in combat purpose?

Previously I've played MUDs where items were restriced to +/-5 ranks of their 'level' but that's not the case here...

L-A

I highly doubt that the level of a weapon has any connection to the number of attacks, but then again, I am just guessing.

As for it having any combat purpose, perhaps it's just a self inflicted impression, but I've found that when I wear a high level weapon with a low rank character, I deal less damage that if I wear it with a pinn having the same stats, i.e. I believe that is kind of a restriction, but a "softer" one.

[the_nightmare]

If you are wielding a weapon that is level 40 for example and you are level 20, then you will deal less damage because the weapon level is not proper for your rank.When you reach the level of the weapon, you will experience it's full potential.It is made for a balance issues.Tell me what it would be for a char at level 20 to run around with a weapon with 31 avg?

[Tantangel]

I believe what you have describe above is damage cap for the level of your character more so than the item being better. I could be wrong on that one but that's what I have always attributed that to.

[The-Nameless]

Nightmare is correct from my expirementing. A sharp glaive will outdamage a fire lance on a level 30 character from my experience.

[mya]

...I've found that when I wear a high level weapon with a low rank character' date=' I deal less damage that if I wear it with a pinn having the same stats, i.e. I believe that is kind of a restriction, but a "softer" one.[/quote']

Correct, it's there to prevent this pwanage:

Tell me what it would be for a char at level 20 to run around with a weapon with 31 avg?

And this also exists,

I believe what you have describe above is damage cap for the level of your character more so than the item being better. I could be wrong on that one but that's what I have always attributed that to.

but only applies to damroll as a CAP (if my memory does no fails me), to prevent complete Pawnage from low level thieves or others with Pinacle suits.

I think that at 30, it disappears. And basically the both effects have zero impact on Pinnacle PK.

[mya]

That means if you get a round like this:

Your slash hits

Your pierce hits

Your slash hits

Your slash hits

You know that your primary weapon (slash) fired three times, but your dual wield only fired once. By analyzing the order in which the slashes/pierces occur, you can see if third attack fires when second fails. By analyzing many rounds, you can see if the probability is different if using two weapons, two handed, or a single one-handed.

One question Celerity, are the attacks independent or dependent.

Independent: chance of firing third attack does not depends on firing second attack.

Dependent: If you did not fire the second attack you cannot fire third attack.

This is the only thing I can figure out.

[Trick]

What upsets me is that staff + pugil is more defensive than shield block. I'm holding a giant slab of metal against your stick, I should be more defensive. After having a shield lore warrior and a staff lore warrior back to back I can say that it IS more defensive than a shield and it's aggravating.

[mya]

staff + pugil is NOT more defensive than shield block

It's more offensive.

Staffs are very good for defense in favorable conditions, but shields are more dependable. The best bet is a staff + shield, but that cripples your offense.

[Celerity]

Look at the order of attacks in a series of rounds. If you see a third offhand attack but no second offhand, it must be independent. If that doesn't happen, they must be dependent. Take a look at my example in my previous post.

Shield specialty warriors should have a large defensive advantage over staff lore warriors now due to the shield lore boost.

If you aren't a shield expert warrior, don't use shields as a warrior.

[L-A]

What upsets me is that staff + pugil is more defensive than shield block. I'm holding a giant slab of metal against your stick' date=' I should be more defensive. After having a shield lore warrior and a staff lore warrior back to back I can say that it IS more defensive than a shield and it's aggravating.[/quote']

From memory they are about the same (defense wise) when you are unblinded, know your assaliants weapon and have around the same hitroll.

As soon as:

a) You are blinded with no blind fighting;

You don't know the weapon that is trying to hit you;

c) Your assaliant has MUCH higher hitroll than you;

d) Several (or all) of the above then;

shield block becomes your best friend (espeically in the hitroll situation). Its dependable almost 100% of the time, whereas a staff is only when you've managed to rig most conditions to favour yourself (as Mya said, favourable conditions).

Warriors (and to a lessor extent rangers) can really push a pugil strategy to their advantage as they get that hitroll up. Not that I'm saying this is the 'best' strategy in all situations (vs casters you can risk less defense for more offense, and perhaps should) but its certainly a great place to start.

L-A

[f0xx]

Trick, if you compare a staff warrior who has 120% in staff, with above average two handed and parry ability, to a shield, then yes, staff is more defensive.

[Trick]

All valid points. I'll do some more experimenting.