Misogyny and gamers

[Pali]

Just because it is unlikely I would be raped when walking alone doesn't mean I wouldn't be mugged' date=' shot, stabbed, or victim of any other violent crime.[/quote']

You completely missed the point. Everything above you listed a woman is arguably more likely to have happen to her than you are to you, due to seeming an easier target... but I wasn't talking about walking the streets. I was talking about the dangers involved in attending social engagements. If you think you carry the same risks that women do, you are fooling yourself.

I actually don't think my sentences undermine each other.

You said that we are doing the best we can - then immediately said we can do more. Those two things directly contradict each other.

There is a history in this country that I as a white male have serious advantages... but guess what? I don't. There is a real concept of reverse racism. Have you ever seen a scholarship specifically designed for white males from suburbia?

...not getting into how wrong this is, not getting into how wrong this is...

[KRins]

Have you ever been denied something with superior qualification because the other applicant was an ethnic minority? Until it happens to you, reserve judgment. If you honestly think that sex is strictly the only basis for crimes, you are completely out of touch. Again, addressing that human beings aren't a perfect deity allows me to say exactly that. We are doing the best we can, but could theoretically do better. You like to speak from your ivory tower, and I happen to think you are a very bright man... but you are way out of touch with reality.

[Pali]

At what point did I say sex was the sole basis for crimes? As for affirmative-action style programs, they're an imperfect solution to the exact opposite problem, that of whites getting preferential treatment, which historically and I'd argue still today is the greater problem.

And no, I don't think we're doing the best we can. I don't see how attempting to point out ways in which we can try to improve our society is me speaking from an ivory tower... These are issues that I see face to face on a daily basis that I'd like to see addressed, not issues I have simply a philosophical objection to.

[KRins]

Then you stroll through a very different flavor reality than I've experienced in a rather large diversity of settings... as such, agree to disagree.

[Pali]

My closest friend is a black guy who is expecting to be fired soon because of a racist management staff (his clients love him and are planning to sue on his behalf if it happens), and who'd love to work where I do but knows better than to waste his time applying because my boss simply will not hire a black person. I have two close female friends who regularly make a point of letting me know the name of a date and where they are going with the request that I make sure to contact them the next day because they've been date-raped before. That's some of the flavor of life I'm walking through.

P.S. This is in Madison, WI.

[The-Nameless]

RE:Pali

Have your friend file the motions to get him investigated by the government.

Tell your female friends stop going home with guys who they don't know very well.

Having a racist boss can be a problem, that the authorities can deal with. see :Zero Breeze, cincinnati. Very similar occurance. New management, all hispanics laid off, new white employees hired.

[Pali]

He's already prepping to take legal action with the help of his client's family (he works with mentally disabled people, and the parents of his primary client are both attorneys).

The advice for my female friends is patronizing and based on ignorance of the situations, so I'm going to ignore it.

As for my boss, it'd be damned near impossible to prove in any way given that it's a small store and that every time we're hiring we get tons of applicants, nearly all of them white given Madison's demographics, so to demonstrate that ethnicity was part of his decisions would be very difficult... and quite frankly I'm too appreciative of him as a boss in all other aspects to bother trying to.

P.S. The point of my last post wasn't to seek sympathy or advice, but to provide KRins some context for why I am not impressed when white Christian men in the USA complain about institutional persecution or discrimination against them.

[KRins]

I've personally been passed over for academic scholarships despite superior GPA and journalistic extracurriculars because the other candidate was a hispanic female. So... in my experience reverse racism was in fact the issue as she herself admitted to an inferior GPA and NO journalistic extracurriculars while I sported a 3.75+ GPA, was the anchor/producer/lead field reporter (all at the same time) for the entire college's sports highlight show, and hosted 4 separate college radio shows ranging from sports to campus issues to world news. So, I am not especially impressed by your absolutely closed, locked, key thrown away point of view especially when presented with experiences that differ from your own observations (which do not carry the same weight as having lived it).

Interestingly I've known, dated, and been related to women in REAL cities like New York, NY and Memphis, TN that will openly tell you that you are a potential date rape victim if you are just completely ignorant about the world around you. If you hang out in seedy areas... and most especially if you date men (as you mentioned) that make you feel as though you need a safety net such as a friend to check up on you... I think it is less a reflection of society and more a reflection of an individual's decision making and interpersonal awareness.

As I said before, I agree to disagree... but don't try to pass me off as a whiner when I have experiences and interactions with literal blood relatives that directly conflict with what you say. Even poorly veiled Ad Hominem is a logical fallacy to be avoided.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I've personally been passed over for academic scholarships despite superior GPA and journalistic extracurriculars because the other candidate was a hispanic female. So... in my experience reverse racism was in fact the issue as she herself admitted to an inferior GPA and NO journalistic extracurriculars while I sported a 3.75+ GPA, was the anchor/producer/lead field reporter (all at the same time) for the entire college's sports highlight show, and hosted 4 separate college radio shows ranging from sports to campus issues to world news. So, I am not especially impressed by your absolutely closed, locked, key thrown away point of view especially when presented with experiences that differ from your own observations (which do not carry the same weight as having lived it).

Have a seat, Renegade. I am going to attempt to go over your personal experience here with the best of intentions. I have no desire to weigh in on anything beyond what is quoted above due to having enough on my mind. My analysis has more to do with my research into education fields and minorities than it does with the larger binaries and signifiers that are represented in the original topics. Also, to hell with all of you for catching my attention, again.

Now, what I'm about to say may appear contradictory, so, hold on tight and try to stay with me, friends. Affirmative action is wrong. It is the visitation of the sins of the father upon the children of the white man. White men need to get used to the fact that they have white privilege. If white privilege did not exist, there would be no segregation within this country. Segregation still exists outside of the large cities of the North. I can point to over 100 counties in the South alone where census data shows that prior to 1885, there was a significant black population and within 30-50 years, that population decreased by over half. There are counties in my home state that have the same problem. Most places have less than 1% of the county as black population.

The entire issue of race simply should not exist at this point. The biggest issue is that there is racial tension and it appeared most prominently after the last set of elections. As a country we also have ethnicity issues, distrusting of religions, country of origin, the Mexican border, etc... Part of this comes from an inability to move past race as the idea of a biological science when all it is is a social construct. Getting rid of the ethno-racial pentagon seen on documents and forms that allow people to "identify" with a race would be great except then tracking discrimination becomes difficult. None of this, by any means, is a lock it up and throw away the key issue.

Now, what happened to KRins is a difficult thing to swallow. I have been there. I'm the poor white kid who couldn't afford college after high school. That meant digging myself down into a hole and finding a light. My part is to now dig myself back up, a difficult task, but one I am up to because I am white. What does that mean? It means when I choose to dress myself in a suit and tie, shave, and pull my hair back into a half ponytail, I look damn good and command respect. The culture of the United States has always been one that projected the image of the white man in the business suit as the person you want to know, the person who is success, and this hasn't changed much. I can walk into a store and no one worries about me shoplifting. Remember BeerGate? The black professor wearing the suit being arrested trying to get into his own home? I challenge anyone to believe there wasn't any racial profiling there. Still don't think white privilege exists? Watch the commercials for the newest Ipod or Iphone that comes out. Tell me how many whites you see in that. Next generation gaming console from Sony or Microsoft. How may Latino kids you see playing the game in the commercials? There is a socioeconomic gap and advertisers are aware of this and are aware of who to pander to.

Schools within the United States still have not gotten past standardized testing and they have not gotten past white privilege. This is on the high school level, by the way. Native Americans were taken from their homes to learn English and become "less savage, less barbaric". Schooling has long been a way to assimilate other people into a Eurocentric way of thinking. It does not account for anyone who is different, despite the demographic of whites moving towards becoming a minority. That there becomes a preferential treatment for a hispanic girl with a GPA less than yours is not surprising. What is telling about it is that you refer to the GPA as inferior to yours. GPA is not a measure of intelligence. You look at my high school GPA and you might think I was mentally handicapped. I have been awarded no scholarships since starting college, yet, I am about to be published in an academic journal in February with only 63 credits to my name.

Nothing is fair. The best one can do is attempt to rectify situations and give a hand to the person who needs it. Trust me, we all need a hand.

[Pali]

KRins, at no point did I defend affirmative action as perfect - it isn't, and ideally there'd be no need for it. But my point to you has never been that your experiences don't count or aren't unfair - my point has always been that they are repeated on a larger and more unfair scale to others, that while everyone's getting screwed, white men get it the least and have comparatively little to complain about.

And, like Nameless, you assume that the women I referenced placed themselves into dangerous situations that they should've known to avoid. That assumption is a load of crap, and both of you should be ashamed of yourselves for making it. Women are not just raped because they were in the wrong neighborhood (no matter the city) or they thought the dangerous guy was exciting or because their skirts were too short. This victim-blaming BS pisses me off to no end. Edit: Ironically, even if it wasn't, my original point regarding the different things men and women have to worry about stands... Because almost no men feel a need to use the kind of date-vetting process you're talking about. Not having to worry about being raped is a matter of male privilege - my original point in all of this.

Now kindly do not lecture me on the ad hominem fallacy when you were the one to make this a matter of personal experiences with your absurd ivory tower comment.

[Twinblades713]

Ooooh, mad.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Ooooh' date=' mad.[/quote']

Is that long, drawn out "Ooooh" a subconscious desire of the phallic persuasion?

[Celerity]

Sometimes I don't think you understand all the words you are using, Valek..

[Pali]

Is that long' date=' drawn out "Ooooh" a subconscious desire of the phallic persuasion? [/quote']

Or is it a desire of the Palic persuasion? :eek:

[Twinblades713]

I'm wondering if Valek can go three posts without mentioning a dick...

Or tattling.

[Mali]

Racism in any form is unacceptable.

Demeaning attitudes against women are unacceptable.

Krins, why do you assume her heritage was the only reason she was selected? Competitive positions and scholarships are never by the numbers. Personality may play a role as well as presentation of the materials, personal statements, networking, and the perceived needs of the scholarship committee. Sometimes these needs do include consideration of ancestry and ethnicity. Sometimes it's luck of the draw.

Sometimes we don't get what we want, but being bitter about it is not healthy at all.

I'm on your side and I like you, but I agree with Pali.

American history is full of institutional bias and affirmative action is an institutional reparation to that history.

None of which has any relevance to the original post and video, LOL.

Now, for something completely different:

Let's get back on topic.

[Twinblades713]

Krins, why do you assume her heritage was the only reason she was selected? Competitive positions and scholarships are never by the numbers. Personality may play a role as well as presentation of the materials, personal statements, networking, and the perceived needs of the scholarship committee. Sometimes these needs do include consideration of ancestry and ethnicity. Sometimes it's luck of the draw.

Also, tits.

[KRins]

Valek... I just don't know man. You have a ton of good points until you try to tell me a GPA cannot be inferior to another one. 3.75 > 3.74 or below. One is inferior to the other. It does not make me of a higher IQ. It shows that my professors deemed my work SUPERIOR and hers inferior on average over the course of 90+ credit hours since we were both seniors.

Ivory Tower thinking is the pursuit of intellectual knowledge outside of practical norms. I have concrete personal experience and direct, irrefutable observations from multiple sources. You have two sources that, in my opinion and the opinion of two Ph. D holders I elected to mention this to (Sociology and Nursing with a nice JD thrown in on the side), exercise the definition of socially irresponsible behavior. If I know I am going into the cage of a hungry tiger, if I am aware I would want someone to call me after I am supposed to have left said cage, and I still engage in this theoretical tiger encounter... whose fault is it if the tiger makes me his chew toy for a few moments then eats my face? If you place yourself in harm's way knowingly or even with the logical suspicion of being in harm's way... you are making bad choices and might deal with intensely unpleasant circumstances. Not everyone has agreed to the Social Contract. Some people really live in a state of nature. If you make yourself available to those people and are completely unprepared to fend that off, that is YOUR (the victim's) fault. As such, I feel you are exhibiting Ivory Toweresque thinking because you are suggesting these grandiose, perfectionist ideals I am sure we would all like to have happen while turning your nose up at the concrete, practical knowledge that perfection is impossible and sometimes YOU (the victim) did put yourself in danger.

I believe heritage played a part because the speech introducing the award as well as the fact the award itself bore the name "...Scholarship for Academic Excellence in the Classroom and Journalistic Community of..." It was established by both myself and the scholarship recipient that I was the better candidate based on those two, and the ONLY two, categories for consideration. As Valek said, just because white people have enjoyed advantages and even completely suppressed the rights and desires of minorities (and quite frankly... my people got here during the Great Famine in Ireland and were essentially dirt poor, 12 people 1 room flavor poor, meaning we didn't live on some fancy plantation with slaves and privilege) doesn't magically make it alright to go the other way and create a series of alternative routes for minorities to achieve the same things I would want to. Again... when is the last time you saw a scholarship specifically for white males interested in some altruistic field like social work? When is the last time ANYONE at all found it socially acceptable to have a historically white college? There are at least two historically, and quite frankly currently, black colleges in the state of Florida. There is, in fact, a different set of rules to this very day for different groups of people. Just because I am paler than most doesn't mean it is any fairer to me.

And that is my final thoughts on that!

[Mali]

I understand why it is frustrating to you and I sympathize, but you have to let it go.

[KRins]

I understand why it is frustrating to you and I sympathize' date=' but you have to let it go.[/quote']

Then logic dictates so does everyone else. I mean... should I, my particular racial group, or anyone else have to just deal with it? People didn't just get over slavery did they?

I said those were my final thoughts, because I'm not being addressed or heard beyond a "nuh-uh" or "get over" level of thought... but I feel my points are incredibly valid and worthy of a little more than "harden up, princess". As such, agree to disagree. I think you all have well developed thoughts on the topic, I just do not happen to agree with any of them on a complete level. If we patch worked everyone who has expressed something well thought out's ideas, we would likely arrive at a truly profound and moving intellectual thesis... but I can't afford to live in the Ivory Tower... rent in that place is completely out of this world.

[Mali]

But this thread isn't about race, it's about videogames and women. Continuing in this alternate direction will only result in mass censorship and a thread lock.

[egreir]

Pardon me, Sir, doth thou knowest where I might find a hunting group?

[Pali]

You have two sources that' date=' in my opinion and the opinion of two Ph. D holders I elected to mention this to (Sociology and Nursing with a nice JD thrown in on the side), exercise the definition of socially irresponsible behavior.[/quote']

...How dare you? This is the single most absurd, outrageous thing I have ever heard you say. You know absolutely nothing about my friends, their behaviors, who raped them or what the circumstances are (outside of the very broad term "date-rape"), and you think you have the right to determine that they must have been behaving irresponsibly? Where the hell do you think you are justified in making that call?

You have managed to destroy with this one comment all respect I have ever held for you. I'm in the ivory tower? You are making assumption after assumption about things you know nothing about.

[Twinblades713]

At least interwebz respect is worth as much as the points on "Who's line is it Anyway."

[KRins]

You, yourself, stated they on more than one occasion have gone out with gentlemen they felt the need to arrange a safety check against. You said that. I don't walk through the lion habitat wearing prime rib pants. Nothing wrong with prime rib pants... just something wrong parading them in front of lions. If the only information you give me is that they frequently date men they feel need to checked up after, that is what I will make my judgments on. Tell me more about them and I will certainly modify such. If the only thing I need to know about them is that they date men even THEY question as far as moral fiber... well... I've already stated what I think about that.

Fortunately, I am completely secure in who I am... my experiences and observations... and the fact that basically everyone thinks I'm badass. If you can't see it, your blindness isn't my fault.