Pali Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 There are indeed people who will call themselves feminists that are, in a term, man-haters. I can't argue with that - it is a matter of fact. However, whatever term you care to attach to it, my goal is equality - equality of opportunity, equality in legal terms, and equality in how society views one as a human being - a goal that will, I recognize, likely never be met, but should forever be sought. But we'll never reach that level of equality if we keep pretending that all of us face the exact same challenges, the exact same concerns from birth onward. This is not the reality of our situation. Rape is one of those things I do not think humanity will ever be rid of - I'd be willing to bet it has existed within sexually reproducing species since the first evolved where the female was capable of rejecting a male - but derogatory ideas regarding women perpetuate at a far greater rate than those regarding men, particularly when it comes to sex, and they in many ways support the views of men who commit rape. Compare a man who is known to have sex with many women versus a woman who is known to have sex with many men. The former tends to be labeled a pimp or player, the latter a slut or whore - but these are not equivalent terms within the cultural context. Being called a pimp is generally a compliment, being called a slut is almost always an insult. Compare the pay grade for women vs men doing the same job. As much as I'd love us to be starting from a point of gender-equality and try to trim the stereotypes equally to keep us there, the simple fact is that we're not at that point and won't reach it if we don't remain aware of the concerns of those who are not us and understand that others might have bigger problems than we do. EDIT: Brushing off rape as something the woman should've known or acted to avoid is indeed victim-blaming, but it is more than that - it is perpetuating the idea that rape is something to be expected as part of the world, that while it is something wrong it is also something normal, that one should always be cognizant and prepared for it. The reason this issue has bothered me so in my discussion with KRins is that this is the feeling I've been getting from him - that the people I know who have been raped simply weren't careful enough when dealing with obvious dangers, when quite simply this is both factually wrong and an attitude that helps foster the idea that rape is partly the victim's fault - "parading the prime rib pants in front of lions", as it were, as if the rapists themselves are less to blame for following their own natures than the women are for placing themselves in the situation. This is victim-blaming - this is focusing one's attention not on the person committing the wrong, not on the society and culture that perpetually create people who commit said wrong, but on those who suffer said wrong. In many ways, I view it as akin to the reactions to Anita Sarkeesian's treatment - oh, she dared to try to start creating a series of videos about the treatment of women in video games, therefore she should have of course expected to have an organized hate and harassment campaign created against her. That is simply bullsh*t. Her actions in no way justified the reactions she got from many, and to simply brush those reactions off as what should be expected is to contribute to the problem. EDIT 2: Tarako, the original idea of this thread was to get people's reactions to the treatment Sarkeesian's received and to the broader issue of how gamer culture treats women overall. You did a very good job of giving your reactions to both, which is why I appreciated them despite disagreeing with you. This is, again, an issue that affects a number of friends of mine, who for example prefer not to bother with voice chat when playing games on Xbox Live because of the reactions they often receive from male gamers, but while I'd seen the issue raised in a number of other forums I visit I was curious to see how the issue would be discussed here... and let's just say I've not exactly been impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 There are more factors to consider when evaluating pay disparity than just sex. I've personally never encountered it. Ultimately, if you don't feel you are making a wage that properly reimburses you for your productivity, it's on the worker to negotiate a new wage or seek alternative employment. Also, there are certain biological differences that will force employers to consider different factors when hiring females over males. It's hard to argue for equal salary when a female is expected to be given paid vacation during pregnancy and have her job kept vacant until her return, thus diminishing her productivity to a company when compared to a male worker. I don't really want to get into the rape discussion since any internet discussion on men vs women invariably leads to rape. Haven't we learned anything from Michael Douglas? I'll just say that a woman can't expect rape to not exist, no more than we can expect murder to not exist. No amount of education will change that. However, a woman can take the necessary measures to ensure her own safety, whether that be self-defense, traveling with friends, or simply avoiding risky situations altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 To your first point: And the women who are paid less despite not having kids/maternity leave? (edit: there again is an implicit sexist assumption - that women will require time off for kids but not men; frankly, I think both parents should have subsidized time off - if I'm not misinformed, I believe a number of European countries have already made strides in this direction, and I'd love the USA to follow suit) However, you're right that sex/gender are not at all the only factors that influence pay disparity - but despite that, it is very much the case that a pay disparity exists between the sexes. My personal position is that maternity leave and the like should be govt. subsidized so as to minimize the impact on the employer - and yes, I recognize that things are not quite as simple as that and I am simplifying my view for the purposes of this thread, but we can leave the role of govt. in this arena for another discussion because I wouldn't be surprised to find we disagree on it. To your second: I fully agree that rape will always be a threat, a part of the environment humans live in to some degree - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be spraying as much weed-killer as we can, and having a society that regularly treats people of both genders purely as sexual objects but does so on a far greater degree with women doesn't help things much. Simply treating the status quo as the way the world works makes it easier to take our eyes off of the way the world should work, and makes it easier to allow it to remain the same. P.S. I am drunk. I go sleep now. See you guys in a dozen or so hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Promoting self-defense and situational awareness is precisely the best way to change the status quo. No one is going to stick their hand in the cookie jar if they know they might pull out a stub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Oh, don't get me wrong - I'm all in favor of promoting self-defense and an understanding of the ways things are and how to deal with such. Such is a good idea for anyone, man or woman. But I do not think that the underlying cultural context and how it influences men's views towards women, or women's views towards men, or men's views of men or women's views of women, should be forgotten either. The ideas we as a society promote as the "right way to be a man" or "right way to be a woman" unfortunately do impact people in a very real way - it's not just that someone sees a stupid idea on TV and decides to act on it, but that very subtle messages regarding others get ingrained within our world-views often without us realizing it. As another personal example: I am racist. It took me a while to recognize this, but I have deeply ingrained prejudices regarding black people, particularly black men. I grew up going to a 90%+ black school as the single ginger attending, and as such was the target of a significant amount of harassment as a kid. Now, for the most part, this was simply kids being kids - but as I was an easy target it was far more focused than the bullying some receive (though very fortunately nonviolent, thankfully), and having spent a good deal of time examining my history and my reactions toward and interactions with people I can look back and say that it has negatively colored a lot of my experiences with non-white people. I could try to pretend my prejudices don't exist, that I always look at everyone equally from the start - but I think that I will do far better in the long run to recognize them and to consciously attempt to overcome them. This is what, I think, our society is trying to do - we're doing it in bits and pieces, and it's not working perfectly for all involved - but we're getting better. That's the upside - slowly, over time, we're getting better. The trick is not forgetting what needs to improve in the first place... and where we're trying to end up. P.S. Knowing you, inscribed, we probably won't agree on where to end up... or at least, how to get there. Still, despite (or maybe because of) how often we disagree, I do enjoy our discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inscribed Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Pali is a ginger?! How did I miss this? THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 ...jeez, if nothing else, I'd have thought the bs mustard Pali pics would've clued you in... This is why I like you, inscribed. We may disagree about everything from the sun to the earth... but we have fun doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imoutgoodbye Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I'm wondering if Valek can go three posts without mentioning a dick... Or tattling. I have a box for you and there's a dead puppy inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pali Posted December 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I have a box for you and there's a dead puppy inside. Mmm... dead puppies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'tarako Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 'Something I've always wondered about:How does pay inequality work? Every job I've seen or known of has had a set pay rate. Work at McDs, you make minimum wage. Working at my maintenance job you started at $8/hr and would earn more for dangerous or risky jobs. Looking at future potential jobs in my field, set salaries. Do these vary? I'm still young and I've never run into different people being payed less for the same job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Some jobs are entirely off limits to women currently. For example, President of the United States of America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'tarako Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 'So you mean just a theoretical pay difference? Technically a woman can be President of the U.S.A. but it currently isn't likely to happen. So, pay inequality actually means the chance of a woman being able to get a certain job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Gender and sex based job exclusions certainly play a role in the persistent state of employment inequality in the U.S. However, here are some data points from the census concerning actual pay during employment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'tarako Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 'Interesting chart, but this is not what I'm asking. Are these year round workers, working the same job? Is that following 1 male factory worker to 1 female factory worker? Working the exact same job? Or just men that work year round to women that work year round? Im just trying understand if the pay inequality is due to being payed differently for the exact same job, or women only being able to get less well paying jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egreir Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Its a mixture of both. Not every job has a set salary. You've never heard of salary negotiations? And damn it people stop derailing this sweet potato fry conversation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 Ratio of Women's to Men's Earnings by Occupation The ratio of women's to men's earnings, for all occupations, was 81.2 percent in 2010. The ratio varies by occupation. In occupations such as personal financial advisors, retail salespersons, insurance sales agents, and lawyers, for example, the earnings ratios are lower than the overall ratio of women’s to men’s earnings. In occupations such as stock clerks and order fillers, bill and account collectors, and combined food preparation and serving workers, women earn more than men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 More data... Among college graduates with advanced degrees (professional or master's degree and above), the highest earning 10 percent of male workers made $3,448 or more per week, compared with $2,311 or more for their female counterparts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akoz Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 I have worked in retail sales for 10+ years /w more then half of that being in management and have run across little if ANY pay difference based on SEX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egreir Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 You must suck at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 And yet trends in pay differences are evident based on population surveys and statistical analyses, despite your personal experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akoz Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 And yet trends in pay differences are evident based on population surveys and statistical analyses' date=' despite your personal experiences.[/quote'] I am sure there are differentials in pay, I am also sure there are bias in the statistics. Just as in any graph ever posted by anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'tarako Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 'I see. I've never heard of wage negotiations. I just assumed you applied for a job, and if you got it, you now earned X amount of money. Then you could get raises and such. These charts make sense then. So, for most jobs, women do not get to negotiate as high a salary? This is the fault, then, of those businesses trying to cheap out/ not pay women what they're worth. Is there a correct way to negotiate job wages? When does this take place? How do you know if you're making a fair wage for the job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akoz Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 'I see. I've never heard of wage negotiations. I just assumed you applied for a job' date=' and if you got it, you now earned X amount of money. Then you could get raises and such. These charts make sense then. So, for most jobs, women do not get to negotiate as high a salary? This is the fault, then, of those businesses trying to cheap out/ not pay women what they're worth. Is there a correct way to negotiate job wages? When does this take place? How do you know if you're making a fair wage for the job?[/quote'] The question is do most woman TRY to negotiate more? Men are generally more aggressive in their pay then woman are. Perhaps woman feel that if they push it they wont get the job and that is a problem in it self. As far back as I can remember I haven't had but a hand full of woman try to ask for more then I would offer. I have however had plenty of men do it. Also another thing, most of the time on an application men list their Required Pay higher then most woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mali Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 The information I posted doesn't reflect on why the gap exists. It is simply evidence of the gap itself. As to why they make less, I can only guess. Perhaps it is due to misogyny in video-games. Perhaps it is due to patriarchy in our culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akoz Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 A wise man once said' date=' "Women have equal rights with men, it's just not in their favor to use them."[/quote'] This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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