Change log January 2013

[The-Nameless]

no, but I went through alot of flight sources in that log as well. Five flight sources at 10k ish each within 4 ticks.

Again I am not saying I did not make a mistake, what I am saying is the door never should have been so easily shut.

[f0xx]

no' date=' but I went through almost 100k worth of flight sources in that log as well.[/quote']

Think you got a counting problem there

It's like complaining that a haymaker removes your sanctuary, and you have to quaff a new vial

[The-Nameless]

I would feel different if I had been unprepared for a fight, but basically for me to have won that fight, I needed to have 20+ seaweeds. Even then he would have burnt through them lol. The fact still remains that once a trample lock begins, you do not stop it.

[f0xx]

The fact still remains that once a trample lock begins' date=' you do not stop it.[/quote']

You can say the same about a blackjack - Once a blackjack is landed, there is no waking from it

[Mmm Coffee]

If memory serves me, someone had suggested a long time ago that bash/bodyslam have a versus_size limitation of two sizes. So, giants can bash halflings, but titan size can not cuz they're too small. I always thought that made a lot of sense. Same could apply for charge. Toss in a couple shrink potions for good fun

[egreir]

I suggested an AC percentage based roll to avoid lag.

The way it would work is for every -100ac you get a 5% chance to avoid lag.

So at -500ac you have a chance to avoid 25%

To me it makes sense, seems balanced since out of 8 bashes you're only going to possibly avoid 2, and fits the idea that high dex, armored creatures are less likely to get destroyed by bashlock.

[Twinblades713]

I like that. What is the current ac calculation for heavy lag avoidance?

[mya]

I suggested an AC percentage based roll to avoid lag.

The way it would work is for every -100ac you get a 5% chance to avoid lag.

So at -500ac you have a chance to avoid 25%

To me it makes sense, seems balanced since out of 8 bashes you're only going to possibly avoid 2, and fits the idea that high dex, armored creatures are less likely to get destroyed by bashlock.

There is already something like that for non trip. It's no secret that AC helps decrease bash like landing %.

Statistically it would be about the same as now. You could roll 10 times and never miss. With a 25% chance to miss over 10 tries is [(0,75^10)]= 0.056 or 5,6%.

This is what happens now with bash, sometimes you just get bad luck and land on that 5,6% probability field (which is about 1 in 20) and end up lagged for 10 round.

What we need is what Anume said a hard CAP on number of rounds lagged.

DISCLAIMER: I never said that the chance to evade bash was 25%. Don't go quoting me on that.

PS: Since I typed this, I might I well copy paste part of a idea I'm writing on this subject.

long time lag log: is certainly on our to do list.

This is not very complicated to do in a quick and dirty way. A CAP on "LAG".

Just needs a new affects "variable" associated with bash.

then every time a character bashes an runs the bash function you do:

If first time, place the affect like variable on victim character.

If second time, you increment the variable on victim.

If you land #n bash in row, (#n > = affect variable) make bash autofail. And remove affects variable.

If you ever miss a bash, remove the affect variable.

Of course this kill Necros and DK's bashes due to pets also bashing in same round.

But you can tinker with it easily.

Just make PC bashes count as an increment of 2. And NPC just one.

And increase the #n to 2x #n.

This could also allow, for example for Warmasters Elders to exceed #n by +1 or +2.

If one wish to be lazy one could probably use one of the less used Healers spells as aff variable for this thing and use the duration as variable counter.

Of course this only caps the number of bashes you can eat in a row. Not actual lag.

Caping real lag must be insane code-wise. As I imagine that for the mud lag is the same, either from opponent skills or from own skills/commands.

I also have an idea on that, but its trickier.

[egreir]

I miss the Mya that posted good ideas and correct information It must be a big secret because I've been lag locked A LOT through -500+ ac

Even if such code does exist, it is either sub-par or broken. Just one example - I had an elf pally in full adeptus (great ac), fully spelled up, with an extra -50ac from a cabal spell, mounted....completely bash locked by a FG.

[mya]

It's not broken. I to suffered from the same.

First it's the basher stacking things on his favor:

Giant + enlarged.

+ %bash proficiency. Giants get +3% bash prof as racial bonus.

Then there Fire giant Fire Giant fire bash damage bonus.

Imagine that you end up with a 33% chance to evade the bash. 1 in 3.

I been laged 8 times in this situation. This is a lot of time in PK. 16 rounds.

So [(0,66^] = 3,6%. This is Like 1 in 30. It can happen.

Expecialy with human selective memory witch will most likely remember only the situation where they got lag locked and not the ones where they missed like 4 in a row.

[egreir]

It happens far too often for it to not warrant investigation. And since it IS being investigated, I rest my case.

[Ellwyn]

I suggested an AC percentage based roll to avoid lag.

The way it would work is for every -100ac you get a 5% chance to avoid lag.

So at -500ac you have a chance to avoid 25%

To me it makes sense, seems balanced since out of 8 bashes you're only going to possibly avoid 2, and fits the idea that high dex, armored creatures are less likely to get destroyed by bashlock.

Sounds like a reasonable idea.

Also Mya's idea with a CAP on lag is another interesting one.

And I agree, one skill should not completely "lock" an opponent from doing anything indefinitely.

Not just Kahnt, Saluth did this to me regularly. He didn't even bother dirting or doing any other skill. A Dark Knight that is unable to flee, cast spells, do anything at all. You have to experience it to see how ridiculous it feels. Full health to dead (and it was not like I was under geared). Locks should not be 100% effective as it is now with certain combos (giant + enlarge). Hurts some class/races more than others (and leads to less diversity).

[egreir]

And what you don't know is that your DK had a coded advantaged versus bash ;-)

[f0xx]

There is already such formula in place. AC does help against bash.

And no, just because you have -600 AC it does not mean you will never get completely bashlocked. Sometimes you are just not lucky. After all, massive AC =/= protective shield.

I love Mya's maths. Always. Why 0.75^10 and not 0.75*10 Mya?

[egreir]

The current formula allows for too my instances of complete lag

WHICH IS WHY THE IMMORTALS ARE LOOKING AT CHANGES

In my suggestions it does not mean you will never get completely bashlocked either.

[tassinvegeta]

Never had too much trouble as my smaller sized races vs lagging attacks with the exception of two. Trample and a Qclass skill vs giants. Ridiculous!

[mya]

I love Mya's maths. Always. Why 0.75^10 and not 0.75*10 Mya?

Remember your statistic class, and dice or coins problems?

The probability trees?

Calculation of getting 3 times heads on a coin.

Probability of getting heads on a coin is 50%.

Tree. Head vs Tail

H-H-H

H-H-T

H-T-H

H-T-T

T-H-H

T-H-T

T-T-H

T-T-T

So it's once in 8 tosses.

50% on first coin, 50% on second and 50% on third.

0.50x0.50x0.50 = 0.50^3 = 0.125 or 1/8

If we make 0.50 x 3 we get 1.50, which is incorrect cause the probability is not 150%.

Same thing goes to other %.

[egreir]

This is how I like to imagine Mya.

[Aulian]

I think that is the best post you've ever made in the 10+ years you've been here.

I 100% agree.

[jibber]

I find that pretty hot, actually.

[egreir]

Since when did I say anything to the contrary

[L-A]

I think there is something that has been very much neglected on this thread. The impression I'm getting is that many people think lag = win.

So let's clear this up - when your winning in damage dealing, lagging is useful.

So, if the opponent is beating you up, you have something to fear. However, if the opponent is beating you up you already had something to fear because if they can chase faster and/or search the realms quick enough you will not be getting away.

How many people have you watched spam lag skills during a PK and get out-melee'd? I have seen many. IIRC one of Anume's previous posts says that its people being able to kill by relying on damage from lagging skills (bash/slam etc) that is the issue. This is somewhat true - however, its mostly only seen on giants - in particular fire giants. Once upon a time fire giant bash/slam was nerfed so it did normal damage. It seems this has been repealled somewhere - perhaps this race needs to be tweaked in this regard again?

What if lag damage was all reduced to 'scratches' like trip? Would this solve the issue? I'd also like to add that 'standard' melee doctrine these days is to look for oprogs once you have hit/dam (and perhaps saves) sorted. If you can get 6 oprogs each round then having zero damage from lag means nothing - you can oprog someone to death. This is an equipment issue, however, and off topic.

Finally, with the exception of bards (who get screwed here) - every class can either:

• Lag you; or
  
• Not be lagged by you.
  

Everyone you are lagging is only three eq trips away from lagging you to death right back and/or laughing at your lag as they out melee you. Again, the closer the eq between people, the less useful lag is unless you have some other advantage - usually a cabal skill. Personally, I think class vs class balance shouldn't be looked at in the light of cabal skills because there are some very large synergies. If those synergies are simply so irresistible then banning the class from the cabal as opposed to hitting a skillset with the nerf bat might be the way to go. Or simply nerf that classes chances of having that cabal skill land similar to how monks and blademaster's got changed within Barbarian.

Its also been suggested that lag should be removed and instead all classes given a flee skill. Bashes reduce this skill on each shot so you get less and less chance to flee. Set a floor on the skill drop and a ceiling on how much you can reduce it by in one shot. Different skills can be set differently (bodyslam already is better at lagging than bash, certain qrace skills better again) and away you go. Protective shield type spells negate any reduction in the flee skill while active. Whether or not this is a viable solution I have no idea - I don't doubt with enough testing it could be made to 'feel' like the current situation so the overall 'experience' of lag within the MUD was the same although it is implemented via different mechanics.

L-A

PS - honestly, lag at the moment has just gotten a serious nerf with the shield mastery upgrades across several classes. Those who are so scared of lag could easily put their effort into learning to chase faster and begin using these skills. If lag is such a big killer then this should make you nigh on invincible.

PPS - those who fear the Barbarian lagging skills (how is this thread not closed with such an open discussion???) - put your time into chasing harder with avians. Or get the auto_fly item. Problem solved. Most 'great synergies' within the MUD can be almost completely negated with the right race/class choice (mental resist ring anyone) - its just not possible to negate everything you will face by choosing race/class hence where skill comes into it. However, you will (and should) be at huge disadvantages in some match ups - but this isn't the whole point of the game?

[mya]

Bash/Bodyslam in my view is the least part of the problem.

Since the class that are affected could still try to outdamage them or AC up and try evade it. Except perhaps meele faeries/gnomes.

My main thing on LAG is monk trip on Invokers. And Shamans.

Clerics can dress in Hit/Dam + Mace and give quite a good fight.

Smart Battlemages encourage the monk to trip.

Necros can have pets bash back and break the lag cycle.

But invokers are completely doomed.

They need to be casting to deal damage. Lag completely shuts them down.

They can't even maintain fire shield up due to bolt droping it.

Once the mighty trip starts the only thing to do is cast 'word of recall' and hope you arrive at the pit alive.

This isn't true for all races. Faeries due to size get lagged less and Gnomes can escape the lag more easily.

While a good can chose faerie, and a neutral Gnome. An evil is stuck with normal sized Human Avian or Drow.

Invokers should have some skill akin to Paladins/DK's magic strike or a simple shrink consumable.

Now I understand why that old player was always asking for evil faeries.

[L-A]

No sympathy for invokers Mya. Monks are the bane of all casters - invokers in particular. Not all match ups are in your favour - you should be pushing the cold proverbial uphill at somepoint.

Think about that when you're ice storming some fire giant or hell streaming some ogre.

L-A

PS - avains can be evil. Though I didn't think avains and faeries were immune to a monks skills....