Change log May

[the_nightmare]

Well... I'm an engineer too?

This explains it all ... Now seriously, the changes are great, I don't care if you dont go into details, these are the most significant changes ever for me.I recognized some of the changes that were guessed in the forum long time ago, it is great that you look into player's ideas and realize them.Even if I am not playing I still love the game and I am happy that it is developing.

[P_body]

Two more cents to add to Anume's previous post.

There is no fun in knowing how a skill is exactly coded. If you want to know that' date=' you should read code and not play a game.[/quote']

I disagree with this point.

I can see how showing intellectual property--the code--isn't practical, but that doesn't mean seeing it and applying it wouldn't be interesting. The idea that seeing the code isn't enticing to the playerbase isn't the reason why the code isn't shown, because making the code public would be very easy indeed.

I can see two reasonable and viable causes why the code isn't shown:

• The staff doesn't want to cannibalize their own playerbase by allowing enterprising 3rd parties to use their code to make a new MUD.

The staff expects that certain members, after the initial thrill of reading the code wears off, will lose interest because the game has lost its mystery.

Both are very viable reasons. Being able to read the code and experiment IG with that knowledge seems fascinating. Maybe not to the staff, their view of this game is entirely different and much more sterile than the general pbase, but certainly there are many players that would find that exercise quite engaging. Want to understand dirt kick better? Make a couple different race/class combos and go experiment on mobs/players. Sounds very fun indeed.
How that opportunity would influence the longevity of the game...now that's a whole new topic.

[Anume]

Lol, if you're really interested in the dirt kick code, go read the version of FL that Viri released. I doubt that dirt kick or any other of the base skills got changed since then.

[P_body]

Double post: ignore.

[Celerity]

I think you misinterpreted f0xx's two main points. I also don't think he was trolling, not at all.

The first one was that the change log is very vague which I agree with. It isn't much trouble to write what the bug was. You don't need to list all the skills that were affected by it but you can give more details.

Let's take your list as an example:

"bug with power expertise fixed"

What bug? It would be better to write something like this (depending on what the bug was, since I don't know)

"Power expertise works properly under xx conditions--e.g., gives +2 avg damage, works with offhand, whatever)

"-bug with a quest has been fixed"

"Questname now triggers properly for evils" - or whatever the particulars are.

"-two other bugs with perks fixed"

e.g. "Eagle Eye now properly increases shooting distance"

You don't need to give the details of the bug necessarily, but you should let us know what now works or what is affected. It can still be a single line.

1) you've said yourself you are not playing' date=' so why play the forum troll and complain about a game you are not playing.[/quote']

As mentioned above, this reply was not only in bad taste, but it isn't directed at his points at all--this is just a diversion and a topic changer.

2) You do not know what was bugged so I'd have to go to a great length explaining it in detail and then saying it was fixed now. That is not fitting the format of a change log' date=' which is a short listing only.[/quote']

You can give enough relevant information concerning changes in one line. This isn't really an issue. Problem is, we aren't getting much relevant information at all now. We don't need to know the details of the bug; we just need to know what was changed.

Why complain that things get fixed too late' date=' we have a coder who taught himself to code, you can't expect them to start out knowing how to do everything. With improving skill more fixes are possible.[/quote']

The players understand the situation with the staff and the coder(s). While that explains the cause of the lack of changes, it doesn't really justify or make the slow progress seem reasonable to many players. Of course players will be upset if the game is very, very slow to update. So that is why players complain. You can question why players complain, but I think it is obvious why they do.

All in all' date=' a ton of work was put into the changes. If you do not like them, or the way they are presented, that is your problem, not mine.[/quote']

Yes, it the players' problem. However, the players having a problem is (or at least SHOULD BE) a problem for the admins, so it becomes your problem as well.

If I wanted to do maths' date=' I wouldn't play a game. There is no fun in knowing how a skill is exactly coded. If you want to know that, you should read code and not play a game.[/quote']

The second point (hiding mechanics) that f0xx reminded us of is an old point, but I'll bring up the counterarguments again.

First off, it is up to each player to determine what is fun. Some people have fun solo RPing with mobs, others have fun just training, while others just don't want to die. I've spent a great deal of time checking mechanics--and I'd say that checking has directly benefited the development of the game. It has increased my fun in game as well. Using reference materials is common for many games--just go and see how many detailed wikis there are for commercial games. Just because it isn't fun for you, doesn't mean it isn't fun for everyone. It is fun for many players to delve into the mechanics and that is a player magnet just like any other.

We all know that PK is the driving motivation for most of our players. We also know that same PK system is what drives away most of our newbies pretty quickly. Obscuring the mechanics (which are often counter-intuitive) only makes the learning curve that much steeper. If the players can examine the formulas behind their abilities, I'm sure they'd be more motivated to keep trying to new things. So in terms of the game's newbie attractiveness, open information is a clear win over closed.

Next, there is a misconception that revealing the formula will suddenly make the game shallow and easy. That isn't true. Even if you know the formula, you still need to know how to tweak those variables in your favor. This is the game-level mechanics, where players adjust their stats and EQ to efficiently execute the formulas. Revealing the underlying formula may actually spark more exploration as players try to find ways to maximize them. This all translates into more login hours.

Lastly, if the game hinges on the knowledge of a few formulas, then that is a problem with the simplicity of the game. As I said before, the game should be interesting because it uses interesting mechanics, not because the mechanics are hidden. This isn't a game for players to run experiments and "discover mechanics"--those "games" are for researchers, not most players. Giving out mechanics information will help the staff identify the weaknesses of the game so that they might be corrected rather than eternally bugged because nobody knew how it was supposed to function (f0xx's perk argument). This process results in much better balance and the development of better mechanics over time.

So I've given four good reasons why formulas shouldn't be hidden. To recap:

1. Reference materials can be fun and it is up to the players to choose their fun. Why deny an additional draw?

2. It is clearly more newbie-friendly.

3. Revealing mechanics does not compromise the tactical or strategic elements of the game. Quite the opposite, it encourages more in-game exploration.

4. It serves to direct players towards the intentions of the staff's design and allows them to better respond to it, furthering game development.

Keeping those positive arguments in mind, I cannot think of any powerful enough reasons not to do so. It helps fun, helps balance, helps player relations, and helps newbies.

[Anume]

Cel, I disagree with you there, but that is nothing too new

I've given my reasons and I stand by them.

If you want to read code, read the one Viri released. New one will not be made publicy available.

[Celerity]

The only reasons I saw for not releasing skill mechanics were:

1. It isn't fun to read code.

2. People can play without it, so no need for it.

And for the change log:

3. It is too much work to write a better change log.

Are these correct? I'm having a hard time understanding your reasons if there are more that I missed...

Edit: To be clear, nobody is asking for the full code. We are asking for skill/spell and stat mechanics.

Edit2: Which part of my post did you disagree with, exactly? All of it?

[Dale]

I'll admit I know how a lot of skills work but I didn't know you kick less dirt inside! Power Gamers sheesh!

[Anume]

If you want to read code, read the one Viri released. New one will not be made publicy available.

^^

P-Body made another 2 valid points why the code will not be given out. Given the history of this mud, a bit of carefulness here should hardly be astonishing.

I can stop posting achange log, if that is what you prefer, I made this one as well as I could.

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

:woohoo:

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

^^

P-Body made another 2 valid points why the code will not be given out. Given the history of this mud, a bit of carefulness here should hardly be astonishing.

I can stop posting achange log, if that is what you prefer, I made this one as well as I could.

please don't stop posting change log

[P_body]

I think we should let this topic rest for awhile and just focus on showing extra appreciation for the staff's hard work.

They put in a lot of hours, and as volunteers in a not-truly altruistic cause (like solving world hunger), they do some amazing service to the p-base.

Sometimes too much constructive criticism can eventually begin to sound like just criticism.

I see valid points across the board, but perhaps now isn't the time to has them out.

Anume, Tongar, and the rest of the involved staff who may be unknown/unnamed, my sincere thanks for contributing to the 7000+ hours I've spent having fun (mostly ) playing this game.

[Mali]

Anume has done a great job as a consistent administrator of the mud and stirring things up for players in game on an RP level.

She is not, nor has ever been, the mud's coding engine. I think it would be appropriate to publicly lash Tongar or to ask that he submit more in-depth descriptions to the staff via a note when changes are made. Then, Anume or the staff media admin can simply post the short description made by the coder into the change log.

Alternately, the changes could be posted as they are made via the news in-game, from which anyone could post them here.

If we need more info about their work then we should help identify a solution for the dissemination of information that does not create more work but that does provide the necessary transparency for players to act upon.

[tassinvegeta]

I'm not interested too much in the code. But the single line mechanics in the change log would go a long way in keeping me interested in the game. I've noticed that I barely have interest in rolling up new characters and trying different things out.

However I must admit though, that there were several changes that I'm VERY much interested in because of the way it was worded. Demon area with custom weapon? Avatar at lvl 30? New items in Avalon? Woot!

If that small power expertise bug explaination that Celerity brought up was true. I'd would give me a bit more motivation to try it out on my current character. As of now I have no idea what that bug was and I just as well pretty much forgot about it. I still have no idea what power expertise does and didn't even know about the dirt kick success on different terrain lol (guess I'm a noob). From Celerity's post I am now curious. What I'm trying to say is that small things like that help spark interest.

[P_body]

... and didn't even know about the dirt kick success on different terrain lol (guess I'm a noob).

Though it shouldn't, this still makes me feel better.

[Mali]

I didn't know about the dirt either

[Anume]

:eek:

[f0xx]

Hm... I don't know how, but it seems everyone except Anume actually understood what I was trying to say

The questions I asked were merely examples. I used dirt kick because that is probably one of the most fundamental and well known skills, and even when we are talking about such a well known skill, there are so many unknown things. The successfulness of that skill is influenced by your own dex, by your enemies dex, by terrain, by AC, by proficiency and probably other factors as well.

Alright, Ivy, let's look at his questions in more detail then.

1) dirt kick. Whatever has being human to do with that?

Believe he is referring to max dex of the race.

Exactly!

His post was straight to the point' date=' asked valid questions, and listed examples of the concerns he posted.[/quote']

Exactly! I intentionally try to give as many examples as possible in order to make myself more clear when I try to explain my point view. I don't want anyone to answer my questions, what I want is next time when a newbie comes and asks "Hey guys, if I have 300 AC and someone hits me for 100 damage, how much damage would he hit me for, if I have 600 AC?", to get an adequate reply, not just a reply like, "He would hit you for less!"

...why complain about changes coming in?

Hey now, I don't complain about changes or new things. I complain about not giving a more clear info on them and I think I explained well why I complain about that, and it seems like someone actually got my point:

Giving out mechanics information will help the staff identify the weaknesses of the game so that they might be corrected rather than eternally bugged because nobody knew how it was supposed to function (f0xx's perk argument). This process results in much better balance and the development of better mechanics over time.

Exactly! The first and probably most important part of solving a problem is identifying the problem. When you don't reveal how a skill or a buff is supposed to work, then players can not identify it as a bug, since they take it's bugged behaviour as something normal. Then suddenly the bug gets fixed, and the players who have developed characters around the bugged behaviour of the skill get annoyed. And this can all be avoided by simply stating out loud how something is supposed to work. Then you will get much better feedback when it's not working as intended and bugs will be fixed faster.

2) You do not know what was bugged so I'd have to go to a great length explaining it in detail and then saying it was fixed now. That is not fitting the format of a change log' date=' which is a short listing only.[/quote']

If you follow this logic, the change log can simply contain the following line:

"We fixed some things, we changed some things, we implemented some things."

As Cel said, more details can be given while staying in one line. Noone wants to read essays.

And what is the reason for change logs to begin with? To alert the players that certain things were not working as intended, so they can expect a change in the behaviour of those certain things.

Terrain. Everyone knows it is harder to do inside (inside is less dirt' date=' doh).[/quote']

You are right, everyone knows that. But please tell me, how many people actually know how much harder exactly it is? If you compare a forest terrain to a city terrain, is it twice harder? 50% harder? How much exactly? And how can a player (especially new one) decide adequately whether to dirt in the city or flee to the forest and hope his hurt foe would follow him, so he can have a better chance to land dirt? How much harder is it to land dirt on a 23 dex foe compared to a 20 dex one? How much harder is it to land dirt on enemy with -600 AC compared to an enemy with -300 AC? Everyone knows it's harder... but how much exactly?

And noone is asking for you to reveal the code, but a guideline, something like, "For every 1 dex you have above mine, it's 10% harder for me to land dirt on you."

And again, have in mind this is only an example. The point I am trying to make is that such information should be available, if not on the forums, then on the wiki. Stuff like that should make the game much more easier to learn, much more open, much less elite oriented.

You guys call yourselves vets and don't know the mechanics behind the most simple skills?

Now I know you said this as a joke, but that is exactly the reason why most new players never ask such questions. They are afraid that someone would take them for newbs. That's why I think it would be better for newbs to actually be able to find such information without having to ask the questions... currently, if you don't talk to and ask other more experienced players there is no way for you to learn without spending long years, while constantly dying. And this can be a very frustrating process to newbies.

And lastly...

F0xx,

1) you've said yourself you are not playing, so why play the forum troll and complain about a game you are not playing.

I think this was uncalled for, and it did hurt my feelings, a bit

I think you got offended by my post? That was not my intention. Nor it was to complain. My intention is to create a better learning environment with actual info, not just vague descriptions. You shouldn't take things so personal.

XxX

[One Way Up]

...yeah, didn't know about the dirt either. But then, I've never really paid that much attention to things like that. I just always assumed that my dirts would always miss when I needes to land them the most. I used to play around on the Test Port we had open a few years back. Had an IMP, and honestly, I remember how to slay, conkill, and create items. And....that's about it. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. Just super glad that outta the 6 billionish people in this world, there are a handful on this planet who enjoy this game well enough to continue pouring time and energy into it, like myself.

[Iyorvin]

^^

P-Body made another 2 valid points why the code will not be given out. Given the history of this mud, a bit of carefulness here should hardly be astonishing.

I can stop posting achange log, if that is what you prefer, I made this one as well as I could.

I made a very long post that I just deleted. Celerity stole a ton of my points already anyway. This quote is in reference to the 'I can stop posting a change log...' statement. I can stop playing too? It's the same attitude. You want players or not? You're not going to get them if you don't post proper changes, and you're not going to keep them with that attitude. You may be offended right now and that's why you're getting so defensive, but I never once saw anything negative about the opinions expressed in this thread, only upfront anger on your part, and all I see is that our opinions are not valued.

[Anume]

I know I do get repetitive, but, it seems I need to be:

If you wish to know the EXACT numbers, you gotta read the code, which I for one have no intention to do whatsoever. Things like dirt kick have not been touched in ages, so just read the code viri released if you are interested in this.

Ivy, what you do not seem to understand is that stuff like this here gets very frustrating if you have chosen to NOT play but do olc, do areas, etc, etc, etc INSTEAD OF playing yourself, for A TON OF HOURS and then you mostly just get complaints about it. Having had a couple nights with almost no sleep even though I had to work the next day just bc we tried to get this game running even though some idiot is trying to shoot us down. Sure, you can just stop to play. Sure I could - theoretically - just stop to pour so many hours of my life into this game to MAKE IT MORE FUN FOR THE PLAYERS. See my point?

[Iyorvin]

To conclude then:

You're mistaking constructive criticism for flames and trolling. You shouldn't make posts if you are too tired to reply professionally. There are a TON of valid points in this thread, and I enjoyed the read considerably. I'm sorry you are taking some **** from some *******s. I really am. I don't see it here, on this thread though, at least not until after you basically told a player who has benefited this mud greatly over the years, to go away. That wasn't fair.

On a side note, as I really have zero clue what bug fixes were done, or what changes were made in those regards, I will say, the new areas. Both of them, and the avalon item chnages(although I got screwed getting mine), look wonderful. The equipment is really really nice, and the demon pit is pretty sweet. I would recommend putting the qclass Avalon equipment in the respected chests rather than at the center pod however. Crusader goes in warrior chest, lich/psi into mage pit. Vampire into warrior etc. A suggestion, I do see valid arguments to leave it where it is also.

[Iyorvin]

Also props for all the quests and quest designs, they have been fresh, and it's nice having something so, albeit frustrating, interesting to do.

[Anume]

Also to conclude this, hopefully.

I do not mind constructive critisims however I did not see it here. If someone posts that they are done playing, I do not see why it is necessary to complain about new changes getting implemented into a game they do not play.

F0xx has been a valued player in the past, but, in general, I am simply not a fan of this attitude. If you don't play the game, no reason to complain about it. This does not mean that I have something against f0xx in particular, we had our ups and downs and argued and also agreed on many things in the past.

I think there are two main concerns here, first being players would like to know the code, I've answered that one.

The second being they want more details on what exactly was bugged or got changed. As to that, we will do it in those cases where it is simple to do and does not demand much time to elaborate the exact circumstances of the bug. I will also explain more here why some change lines are short, take the one with the bug that caused a lot of spells and skills to have problems. This was a problem with the code, first off, I do not understand the deep details, second, it would not help much to say something like in line xxxxx of the code there was a ( instead of a { which caused - list of skills here - to not work properly (the brackets just as an example). So these kind of fixes will keep sounding somewhat vague.

We WILL however try to be a bit more precise where it is possible without too much bother.

[the_nightmare]

that's why we need more players like megayeah, they never ask that much questions!