All the Leaving People

[MeleeCrazy]

Oh it's cool, I just read it the wrong way. Kinda glad i don't have to go into another big rant.....

[Zrothum]

Dale. David. Hush. I don't want to have to lay the smack down on you both. Well, except for Dale, since he wants to go and live in the boonies now.

[MeleeCrazy]

Dale. David. Hush. I don't want to have to lay the smack down on you both. Well' date=' except for Dale, since he wants to go and live in the boonies now.[/quote']

Hush Will, no one is to know my real name.

[Chayesh]

Like NOWHERE, SC is NOT the boonies?

[Zrothum]

Bwahaha. We put Beaufort on the map, buddy! lol...No, Dale moved from the city out to the hick part of the county lol.

[Warpnow]

Give up the US vs. THEM mentality and work for the good of the MUD' date=' not your own benefit, and you might have a wider audience listening to your ideas.[/quote']

For the first time of the history of Existance... I agree with Chayesh.

Without imms, the mud can't run.

Without players, the mud has no reason to run.

Both are vital parts of a mud. When one side decides to be high and mighty bad things happen. I think there are some imms who have done this in the past and maybe even some who still do, that can be your opinion, Nomak, but I think right now you are doing it, Nomak, so it happens on both sides quite often.

It is necessary for the players to respect the immortals. Maybe not always agree and there is nothing wrong with ideas/suggestions or even, at times, complaints. There is a line which I am sure I have crossed more than most people, but I realize its there.

It is, also, necessary for the Imms to respect the opinions of the players because it is, quite simple, the players' needs and enjoyment which matter most. I am not trying to be rude, but that is just simply how it is.

Players and Imms are, in the scheme of the mud, equally important. That does not, however, mean they occupy equal stations. There are responsibilities that fall very unevenly amongst the different sides. Generally, imms get more respect in exchange for more work and less play, whereas players get less "respect" because they do less work and more playing.

I think there are times when players are treated poorly and times where imms are treated poorly and when each happens it should be adressed.

I think your comment, Nomak, was severely out of place. You downplay the dedication of the immortal staff while further an insinuation that players are more important than immortals, which is not true. Players ARE important, I will give you that...but there are less players. Assuming, as I believe, both parties are EQUALLY important...then look the division of importance. 200 players...with the same importance as close to 10 immortals, each immortal has more importance individually, but as a collective body they hold the same importance.

I think this is a good way to look at it because it means if one player speaks out, something may be wrong...but if ALOT are speaking out...they come to have more importance than an immortal who thinks differently.

Well, that is my take on things.

[WarriorCleric]

Without players' date=' the mud has no reason to run.[/quote']

Wrong.

The old staff had always said they are making the game they want to play, it was always said that if the players weren't here, the mud still would be. And that is how it was, if the new staff feels differently, eh, but I highely doubt it. If the staff didn't want to do something, didn't want to implement something, it wouldn't happen.

Maybe you forgot, but FL was shut down for a while. Do you recall why? Because the people running it didn't want to do it anymore, for whatever their own personal reasons, but it certainly wasn't for a lack of players, or player support. FL had just as many as ever before, and certainly more than now, consistant players but it still ended. Luckly for the players there were players like Behrens who were willing and able, able being the key word, to step up and to continue to tell this story, because they wanted to tell the story, tell their story.

The mud sole, single, only, reason to exist is because the people running it want it to. The players are here because they want to be and are aloud to.

I am not saying the Imms don't care, because they very much do. This is their art, and everyone wants their art to be enjoyed, but no real artist is going to change their style because an audience doesn't like them anymore.

And god damned right the imm want FL to be successful, and will do their best to create the best damned mud out there, but not at the cost of what they want. The imms opinion matters most.

If FL were pay to play, then you would be right.

WC

[Zrothum]

Musicians do it all the time.

I think what Warpnow was saying is that the administrators of any game shouldn't necessarily kiss the *** of their players, but at least be respectful and open-minded the the needs, criticisms, and suggestions that come from the playerbase. (this is not saying the current imm staff isnt, Im just trying to clarify and understand what Warpnow is saying)

[WarriorCleric]

I am not saying the Imms don't care' date=' because they very much do. This is their art, and everyone wants their art to be enjoyed, but no [b']real artist is going to change their style because an audience doesn't like them anymore.

And I don't disagree that aspect of Warpnow's point, that imms should be respectful of the players and be open minded, and clearly here at FL they are, otherwise FL would not be successful. But I didn't quote that part of his post, did I? ... Well it seems I did, an acciedent now remedied.

WC

[Zrothum]

In other words....I win and you'll be posting my pic now?

[WarriorCleric]

No.

WC

[Zrothum]

By the way, are you saying musicians are not considered 'real artists' ?

[WarriorCleric]

No.

WC

[Raargant]

R O F L.

***.

[Zrothum]

WC secretly sends me love mail, he's just putting on a front.

It's ok, I love you too schnookums.

[Chayesh]

By the way' date=' are you saying musicians are not considered 'real artists' ?[/quote']

It's okay...you can be a real artist since you certainly aren't a musician.

(Debate: smilie...no smilie...)

[Zrothum]

lol ur just jealous because ive been online chatting with hot babes all day

[Chayesh]

lol ur just jealous because ive been online chatting with hot babes all day

Define "hot" and "babes"...I thought Balinor, Dale, and EmpNewb were the extent of your Buddy List.

[Iyorvin]

Tears. Haha............taking breaks from training to be a pit fighter?

[Zrothum]

Define "hot" and "babes"...I thought Balinor' date=' Dale, and EmpNewb were the extent of your Buddy List.[/quote']

Balinor == I'm trying to teach him how to be a smoother operator like my fine mack daddy self.

Dale == He owes me 20 bucks from like 4 years ago.

EmpNewb == tried to steal my woman from afar, id slit his throat (lmao you know i love you bro haha)

but yea........im just a nerd. no hot babes here....just me and my guitar

[MrAdeptus]

Edit: Wow, sorry...I am at school...hit the forum, went to MrAdeptus's account. We go to school together. I introduced him.

So this is Warpnow

-Warpnow

Wrong.

The old staff had always said they are making the game they want to play, it was always said that if the players weren't here, the mud still would be.

I don't think they meant that the way you are taking it.

I think they meant they were going to do what they felt was best for the mud, not that they always were going to build the must just for them. Because, if they're building a mud for them how much fun would that mud be with zero players? Maybe, at times, building the mud closest to mud they want to play involves compromising to ensure there are the players to make the mud enjoyable.

Maybe you forgot, but FL was shut down for a while. Do you recall why?

Do you recall how MANY people and individual teams were working towards bringing FL up again? I know of at least three amongst my very limited aim buddies. I know one of them had been trying to reconstruct the cities from old logs. I know quite a few people had scurried when FL fell to try and resurrect it. FL can be shut down temporarily, but so long as it has its players, it cannot die.

The mud sole, single, only, reason to exist is because the people running it want it to. The players are here because they want to be and are aloud to.

I like to think the people running this game do it because they want to just like the players want to play.

I am not saying the Imms don't care, because they very much do. This is their art, and everyone wants their art to be enjoyed, but no real artist is going to change their style because an audience doesn't like them anymore.

I disagree. I make films as a hobby and I will admit, I make movies I want to see. But If I find no one liking my art...or find the "artwork" of my comedy not reaching anyone, I would change it. Because I make my films for the viewers to enjoy. I would not make a movie I hate, but I enjoy that other people enjoy my movie.

Or what about a writer who finds their work is not being understood? Maybe they are advised their style should be more relaxed by their editor? Don't you think they'd take that advice? Or what if they recieved fan mail which gave them the same advice over and over? Don't you think that would affect them?

And god damned right the imm want FL to be successful, and will do their best to create the best damned mud out there, but not at the cost of what they want. The imms opinion matters most.

I actually said that in my post. But, that doesn't mean the players opinions don't matter.

If FL were pay to play, then you would be right.

No, that doesn't change anything. I downright hate pay to play muds. They are evil, degenerated forms of muds and are embarrassments to the mudding community. If anything, the free muds should care more because they are the ones who truly build the mud for the community.

[Ex-D&Der]

Just one thing--FL is part of real life. There is no other life than real life. It's a game, yes, but if you play it, it's a part of your life.

[Zrothum]

Also, the life you play in FL, is a real life. Perhaps not to you, but, this is a roleplay game. The art of roleplay is to step outside yourself and become your character. In the world of Aabahran, your character is a real person.

Once I realized that....my RP stepped up tremendously. Under normal circumstances (except when I obviously get pissy drunk or really pissed off) I am able to step back and think from my cahracters POV and act that way...its alot of fun when you can do this.

[WarriorCleric]

In response to Warpnow:

I had a lot to say about that response, but I'm just getting tired of this whole topic. Like I've said before, it's a broken record playing a bad song.

So I'll just make this quick.

The imms make the mud, the minute they leave, it's done. Take the code, it was freely released and it's completely okay. However if you take the story, and take the areas that are not publicly released as open domain, you're stealing. A lot of the information that is original to FL was copyrighted anyway. I don't recall how many different teams of people were trying to make FL again, because I didn't care, and I still don't. FL dies with the staff, and I am completely supprised that it remained once Viri left. I understand that Viri was not the only guy running the show, but Viri was very much the core of FL, and I feel thats something even we can agree on. Luni and the other Imps at the time ran the show for a bit, but it wasn't worth it for them, for whatever reason, so they stepped away. And it's obvious that the playerbase took a hit from that shutdown. It stopped because they didn't want it to exist anymore, and having all those teams of people is a testiment to player support for it to stay, but FL survived not because of 100 people wanting FL, it survived because FL was given to Behrens and his crew, they didn't usurp anything, they didn't just run with it, it was given to them, and that speaks an awful lot about what the original implemneters thought of his/their abilities, and I strongly believe thats the reason FL survived. The fact that people were trying to recreate areas from old logs is just sad, they were trying to take something that wasn't theres, and continue to ride the coat tails of something they had no right to, and what would be so hard to give an original idea of their own?

The heart of any mud is the Staff that runs it, and the moment they don't want it to be as it is, thats when it changes. You said it yourself, you will not make a film you hate, and thats what I am talking about. If people wanted you to make a film you hated, you wouldn't, so would it be so hard for the players complaining about the imms not listening to believe that the ideas they are sharing, or the feelings they are expressing go directly against what the imms want for FL?

The imm staff does listen to, and does respect the players, otherwise it would not be as successful as it is, and if everyone is in agreement to this, then I don't see the debate.

And with that, I have one more thing to say... point out...

The mud sole' date=' single, only, reason to exist is because the people running it want it to. The players are here because they want to be and are aloud to.[/quote']

I like to think the people running this game do it because they want to just like the players want to play.

Anywyas, we've stated our opinions of the matter, and it's clear I don't agree with yours and you don't agree with mine, and nothing we can say will ever change the others opinions. So for now, I'm done with this discussion, atleast on this thread.

WC

[Nomak]

I am not coming back after two months just to make one post and flame the immortals.First of all it was not flame because if it was so I was going to be banned for third time.I wanted to say something and I said it wrong.By the words that "imm's are dependant on the pbase" I meant something else.I mean that without pbase there won't be any immortals.Reading the posts I see where this mud is going gentlemen.Imm's are doing their jobs,no doubt but they can do more if they just relax and give the players more reasons to play.FL was more addictive before because of the cabal warfare.It is very cool to have a cabaled character at level 30 and it is much more interactive for everyone.I will just give you simple example:why on halloween there are 100 people on?Because of the chaos.I am not talking about terrible mess,I am talking about lowing the cabal requirements a bit.I am talking about more imm's as well and I already know how to make more imm's.