In regards to Full Loots and Moderates

[Imoutgoodbye]

There is a common misconception that to go Moderate is to choose to be a disadvantaged character. At least, it is said to be a misconception. There hasn't exactly been a dominating Moderate around.

In the interest of dispelling this misconception, I would recommend that someone write a comprehensive guide of how a Moderate is supposed to measure up to a Hardcore character. One aspect of why people choose Moderate is that, for one reason or another, this player does not wish to spend time recovering from a massive looting.

While there have been multiple suggestions about how to make playing as a Moderate more pleasurable, I would greatly appreciate a treatise on how to make a Moderate level with a Hardcore. Let's see how, when properly put together, a Moderate is supposed to have a level playing field.

In no way is this meant to push any aspirations or agendas, but simply as a fact finding mission.

EDIT: This is, by the way, something that would greatly assist any new players coming our way as part of getting into the Top 5 on TMS (which we are close to achieving) and a good comprehensive how to guide would greatly ease frustrations of any new players as they attempt to navigate PK and don't feel like they are being utterly destroyed with no chance.

[Mister E]

I had two very successful moderate rogues back to back.

Deffkoman a slith thief in nexus

Laence a half-elf ninja in tribunal

This was some time ago though

[Imoutgoodbye]

I'm under the impression any Moderate with hide/camo would make for excellent comparisons for their Hardcore counterparts and in general for comparing with any Hardcore class.

The tougher portion of such a treatise would come with say, comparing Moderate Hybrids and Moderate Melees. Moderate mages should do quite well, especially when adding in Journeyman.

[Anume]

As cabal eq does not count towards your rare number, you can replace a lot of slots with cabal eq if you got the cp. There are also some very good non-rare alternatives that are almost as good as their rare counterparts (e.g. diamond wristguards, sphere of life, demonpit weapons).

[Mister E]

Heh I remember I had a fit when cabal eq was changed to rare because of my moderate thief

Glad to see that was reverted.

And yeah if you know how to get around the rare limit I think even full melee moderated could do very well.

It seems like the staff is also lifting the ban on Moderate qthings which is also really nice. All that is left is to allow moderates to go beyond trusted and there would be no reason not to play one.

[Anume]

Still no moderate qthings.

[Teralis]

I can think of a couple mod chars that did ok and would have gone further if they had stuck with them. One f them even was made a Ruthless because of how well he was doing.

Kadrinath beast ranger warmaster

Majandra avian dark knight nexus

Mitrik halfling blademaster Warder

And I know there are a couple more as well just ask.

[Croyvern]

My playtime has diminished greatly over the years, Moderate suits me just fine. It depends on the goal of the character I am creating of course, if I wish to become E/L in a cabal then I will go red, but as I stated with limited playtime, I try to avoid taking a coveted spot that someone with more playtime, and therefor more presence in the realm, should hold. Best of all, moderate allows me to play, I never have to farm equipment. I just grab some fresh consumables and get into the action. Do I prevail? Sometimes, not often. But my failures can usually be attributed to a single oversight during a battle and not to lack of better equipment. So rise my little smurfs, lets tie up that ruthless old wizard and cook his cat too!:eek:

[Spark215]

Rosinon is another example of a blue who is doing fine. I'm confident blues can

do fine with the available non-rares, as Anume was saying. To be honest, I

even prefer the diamond wristguards to the broken terminators. Not sure if I

can say why, but they are slightly different. The difference, to me, being worth

it. Throw in the emblemed cuffs and you're set on wristguards. Emerald brooches

rope climbing gloves. Save rare slots for body/rings and the Cabals will supply

most everything else.

[The Forsaken]

Rosinon has wrecked quite a few people (me included) as a moderate. I'd LIKE to say it's due to his niche. Has a good combo for moderate. There's obviously some skill behind the player.

[mya]

There is a common misconception that to go Moderate is to choose to be a disadvantaged character. At least' date=' it is said to be a misconception. [/quote']

It's not a misconception it's a fact.

A moderate chooses to reduce his maximum power in exchange of a higher minimum power.

For the newer players this is hardly a disadvantage as they will never attain the full potential of their combo. Even if they try to come close, some veteran player will kill them and take their godly equipment.

But make no mistake, a veteran player who chooses to be moderate is giving up some power. Most of the time, it's due to lack of time or patience to endure full lootings. Once you start fighting decked veterans, you will notice that you will be losing some fights, just because you cannot have the Hit/dam and saves of a fully decked veteran.

Its not that you cannot be very good vs one class, or strong in single department. It's that you will never to be able to cover all fields like someone in +60/60 and 30 across the boards as saves.

For example, you might do well as a thief vs meeles. But experienced mages might eat you alive.

Some combos of course work better than others, like Dwarven warriors and all battlemages.

[Imoutgoodbye]

It has to be a misconception. If it is not, it is one that needs to be fixed. The Moderate tier was not meant to be a "lesser" tier. It was not meant to inhibit, but promote, game play.

[Mister E]

It IS meant to be a lesser tier.

Moderate by definition is less than Ruthless, unless you are looking at an inverse scale but either way they are not equal.

Despite being a lesser tier it is still competitive and it offers certain advantages even.

A moderate chooses to reduce his maximum power in exchange of a higher minimum power.

This is a very concise description of the difference.

[Volgathras]

Lesser here is subjective. Mya's explanation was a fine one (go Mya!) but to take the example of a less successfull FLer who can't attain the peak of their power, moderate is more suitable. Not lesser. On the other hand someone who consistently stomps players, playing a moderate would be curtailing their peak.

However I think the point here was that by calling the moderate tier the 'lesser' tier, we are inadvertently giving it a negative connotation. People who need/would function better/have more fun with a moderate isn't willing to try one because we're conditioning them to see it as a negative, to focus on what they LOSE instead of what they GAIN.

And, to be semantically obnoxious, moderate and ruthless are not inherently lesser or greater by definition; they're opposed states, but neither is lesser than the other.

[Imoutgoodbye]

I'm not going to bite into the whole "lesser" "less" thing today (next month for sure), but the idea here is to get newer players and older players to see it as not negative. This is the whole idea behind a well put together treatise on how to reach that power peak that comes close to the Hardcore counterpart. It's not, by any means, perfect. When you can add something like Journeyman, you've got one hell of a start.

I have much, much, much more to go into on this, but tonight's not the night for me to do it. Too much real world juggling to deal with at the moment.

[P_body]

Remember journey man IA meant to be temporary only. After 10 p kills it allegedly gets stripped.

[Mister E]

Lesser should not be considered negative.

Moderate is only lesser in potential.

I don't think moderate should ever reach the same power peak as ruthless.

Moderates get huge perks that for many people will give them a greater experience.

Neither is better, they are different, but one will always have a lower power peak.

Even among race/classes not all have equal power peaks and equal power climbs. I suppose one could argue that some combos are lesser than others but again it's the same thing, lesser is not necessarily bad.

[Croyvern]

I agree with Volgathras.

I have seen greater success with the moderate tier than with the ruthless tier. But its disadvantages would certainly gimp some players, likely those used to acquiring 60/60 and 30 saves (as Mya stated). For new players, or veterans with limited time Moderate is not only a very viable choice, it can provide these players with a far greater gaming experience due to the avoidance of certain things like full loots.

Personally, I have gotten tired of hearing the "I am tired of being full looted, I quit" comments. To borrow a phrase, There is an APP for that. Or rather a Tier. Its not bad gameplay for one ruthless to loot another, Anume has pointed out that If I do not want my enemy back in my face in three minutes, I should loot them. At the end of the day, its a game, and you SHOULD enjoy your time here. If full loots keep that from happening then join the blue team. You may find you like it more.

[f0xx]

The most successful smurf character I've seen, is the one that caused the general nerf of smurfs, i.e. Defkkoman.

The thief played by Master_E caused a lot of complaints and smurfs took a nerf and cabal wares were made to count towards your total Rare count.

02/08/10 Cabal items now count as rares for moderates.

In July this year, this change was reverted:

-Cabal equipment no longer counts as rare for Moderates or Crusaders. (act_obj.c, act_comm.c, save.c)

The player that played Defkkoman, has had a few other successful smurfs.

From this above facts, one can make the following conclusion:

1. You can be successful as a smurf.

2. If you want advices on how to play a successful smurf (rogue in specific), talk to Master_E.

3. Immortals listen too much to the whinings of the players, which forces them to make changes to nerf strong current characters (even if said character is a Moderate), which changes are later cancelled.

PS. I wish the player of Defkkoman hadn't deleted his other forum handle under which he posted Defkkoman's deletion thread. It was a VERY amusing read. One can have only as much laughs when watching people complain how OP a smurf is.