Cabals

[KRins]

Is there some reason you can only get in at rank 50? I have read every single help file for each Cabal and they all state 15-50. Many of us are held down by the 50s randomly killing us at like 45 or 46 and taking all of our things. It really hampers the development of RP in what is supposed to be an RP-intensive game. Just my opinion...

[Zrothum]

I agree with you in a way bro. Cabals now are extremely hard for newer players to get into. I loved when I first started playing that I could get into a cabal at rank 30 and rank through, learning the pk system against all my enemies and so on and so forth. But now, you are barely even looked at if you aren't 50.

Anyhow, to answer your question. Long ago the Immortals decided that the cabal induction system was too friendly to OOC info passing. Your buddies are all on AIM, just say hey man, ive got so and so going for so and so cabal...vote yes d00d! The Immortals decided to make more of an Immortal selection system, with still mortal internal heirarchy.

Alot of people don't like it, including me, but I've learned to deal with it, only because I can survive at 50 and have a shot at a cabal. But, if I was a newer player, like I was a few years ago....I would have left already.

[Designated_Driver]

Plus, it kind of defeats the purpose of a certain very useful cabal service.

[KRins]

I know what you are talking about from playing a long time ago. I quit for a while because it got old. Unfortunately now, it stays old because there is no RP and no PK except complete ownage by cabaled people with insane pets and the like. I would suggest making clans more than just another method of communication with people of the same or neutral alignment. who group + tell is the same thing. Maybe give clans some skill at a high rank (40-45) that gives a little depth at those ranks other than group, group, group, train for hours, try to find a group, get killed by a 50, send 3 days getting your equipment back because its insanely impossible to get that certain rare piece that actually made your character decent back, group, mobdeath because one of your groupmates is completely inept. you get my point.

[Boy Kid Wonder]

I REALLY liked the Squire thing for Knights. You learn about it all and you're a squire to someone tight. I was Tylith's Squire back in the day.

[Zrothum]

the sponsor ability of cabals should be incorporated with a more prominent use

[WarriorCleric]

Sponsor system was nice, and so long as cabals are imm controled I see little abuse with ooc connections.

WC

[Deykari]

Just so I can get 'clued in', what was the sponsor system? Caballers being able to put gold forward for hopefuls for ?

Dey

[Lexi]

I remember in Knight you used to need a sponsor before you could even apply. If you got accepted, you became the Squire of the person that sponsored you.

[Chayesh]

One of the main reasons for requiring pinn'd characters in cabals was when Viri brought back the standards.

How is a rank 50 going to fight off a rank 35 from taking the standard?

Also, vice versa.

Additionally, cabal IMMs usually want to see you survive against the big dogs where the game is balanced. Different classes hit different power spikes at different places in their ranking. Just because your DK owned everyone from 29-43 does not mean that's going to happen at 50. This is one of my main reasons for advocating some other changes which I'll keep to myself for now.

Good Changes...trust me. You want them.

[Wathok]

I will respond to this from the Tribunal standpoint. Anyone who has not yet reached rank 50 will find it impossible to carry out their Tribunal duties effectively. Being a non-cabaled rank 45 is hard; being a Tribune rank 45 is a deathwish. The combination of defending the cabal standard, acquiring enemy cabal standards, chasing down criminals, fending off outlaws, and keeping regular surveillance over the cities will get you killed repeatedly.

These activities, which are required of all Tribunes, take time away from ranking. It is much faster and more efficient for those wanting to become Tribunes to reach the pinnacle of their guild first.

Lastly, I do not believe that someone who is unable to reach rank 50 will be able to carry out the duties of a Tribune. Working for the law is much, much harder than hunting and fleeing from would-be-assassins.

On a separate but related note, it is completely untrue that one must join a cabal to have or participate in good roleplay.

[Zrothum]

You will still have pinned cabal chars, so I don't see where this argument is coming from. It would be up to the cabal IMM to keep a healthy supply of pinnacled people in the cabal, but at the same time, perhaps opening up the doors to lower ranked people. Anything 35+ would seem fair to me.

Tribunals who get promoted enough obviously have their guards to use to fight against criminals. If a character is low ranked and gets cabaled, they should know what they are getting theirselves into (the pk madness, the cabal responsibilities that could take away from ranking/whatever)

I really think with some thought and construction, we could work out a very fair and very plausible way to open up the cabal induction doors a little bit more instead of just to the lvl 50 chars. Even in 1.0 it was easier to get into a cabal pre-50 than it is now.

[Wathok]

You misunderstand. I'm not concerned at all about Tribunal having enough rank 50 members; I'm preventing non-pinn characters from joining Tribunal for their own good.

Having a Guard is not going to save you while you are ranking. Which leads to another point: I will not allow a low-ranked Tribunal the chance to capture, through a Guard, a criminal above their PK range. The PK range limit is meant to protect younger characters from older ones, not protect lower ranked characters from higher ranked ones while allowing the former to hurt the latter.

I realize I may be wrong and that there are possibly players around that can handle Tribunal's responsibilities while still needing to hit level 50. These players are welcome to prove themselves by slaughtering pinnacled outlaws while being lower ranked than them. But until a character of this caliber comes along, I will continue to believe that players with Tribunes will gain the most out of their time in the game by having already reached rank 50.

[Zrothum]

Ok, so let's make all Tribunals have to be 50.

What about the other cabals? I won't argue that the job of a Tribunal perhaps dictates a pinnacle necessity.

[Chayesh]

Ok, so let's make all Tribunals have to be 50.

What about the other cabals? I won't argue that the job of a Tribunal perhaps dictates a pinnacle necessity.

Already been done. Prax noted his feeder clan and cabal weeks ago.

My points still stand regarding why most cabal IMMs choose to make players wait until 50. This isn't a mandate from IMP to IMM. This is the cabal IMMs' choice.

[Zrothum]

Would it be a coding nightmare to make it that Standard Warfare cannot take place unless the two vendetta inPK range cabal members are on?

Like...

knightA(rank 41) KnightB (rank 47)

NexusA (rank 50)

code lets standard warfare take place

KnighA(rank41)

NexusA(rank 50)

code will not let knight take the standard or let nexus take the standard.

That way army warfare can still take place, but the standards remain, sinc ethey cannot harm each other.

[KRins]

Hold on...so you need to be level 50 to defend the city? I have noticed several wanted persons well below the pinn and even a few outlaws, so your argument is slightly flawed. True you can't hope to possibly snatch a standard at say the 35th rank, because of the power difference. Make the standards only carryable by 50s. Much the same as rares and uniques are 15+ only. I'm sure if I didn't get frustrated by dying a few times I could hang out and eventually pinn. Anyone realistically after some experience could, but who wants to chill at 50 for a RL month to finally make it into a cabal when you are like 15 deaths from condeath?

While I'm quite sure that every cabal would rather all pinns, why are there no WMs? why are only a very, very few characters included in the RP storyline? Because we don't allow people to learn from trying. True you can learn all the secrets of your R/C combo, but wouldn't it be nice to tie cabal talents into your general spamming of dirt kick or ice storm? While I have nothing but respect for those who can raise a character properly to the absolute maximum of its potential, achieving pinn and training every skill, it doesn't mean that people who hit a wall at 42 or even 49 isn't any good to the game. If someone at say 44 decided to apply to Tribunal or Savant they know (hopefully) the risks involved. You are basically painting a big bullseye on yourself for any and all enemy cabals. Which at this point is not much more dangerous than walking around the lands because no one actually develops a worthwhile RP reason for fighting 80% of the time. At least this would create one for them.

Also, who's to say a random level 48 won't stomp a 50 based solely on good tactics or creative ideas that are either infrequently used or completely original (Yes I know most every tactic has been done, but thats the lovely part of the undiscovered. You never knew it was there.). I've seen some crazy upsets in PK from time to time. Not too often, but its most certainly been done.

If we really must reserve the precious cabal slots for pinns only, lets do something with clans then. No one is restricted from joining a clan, except by alignment/ethos or financial means. Display the clan tags and let them go at it. If a clanee racks up a ton of PKs against a clan associated with an enemy cabal, do they not deserve the first crack at Cabalhood or some random pinn trained up in a week that may or may not be a credit to the Cabal? Better yet, at certain points in time (I won't make a suggestion since it isn't my place) have all the clanees from one clan fight it out with all the members of a rival clan. If you win maybe hook them up with some gold or better yet hook their sponsor cabal up with special items or room add-ons in the cabal HQ. Send a list of the most useful clanees in the battle royale (for lack of a better name at the time, I just spent 4 hours in English class so bear with me.) to the Cabal Leaders and sponsor IMMs so they can be recognized as the best the clan has to offer since thats what I thought the purpose of clans was.

Regarding the sponsor idea, maybe the useful clanees from the list can be recruited by some of the less experienced Cabaled chars. The clanee learns the ropes, and maybe the Cabaled char learns something they hadn't noticed before from teaching.

Rant Complete.

[Mister E]

You dont need to be in a cabal to learn the rp and pk ropes. I didnt get into a cabal for my first year playing FL. Even after over 2 years and 10 pinns I have still only been in one cabal. Point is, the game is meant to be played at 50, why should anyone pre 50 be allowed into a cabal? If you arent 50 you should be trying to get to 50, unless waiting for a qsomething, but either way you already have things to do that might interfere with cabal duities.

[Designated_Driver]

Actually, to kind of rebut this topic, I have semi-recently had a non-pinned person placed in a cabal.

[KRins]

Obviously you should be trying to be all you can be, to borrow a phrase, but some of us, I say some assuming that couple would leave one or two people out, would value joining the RP that goes on with the extremely RP talented IMMs and cabal leaders without spending 11.748 years getting pimp slapped and looted by 50 at 45. I can specifically recall spending 9 solid days (approx. 4-6 hours a day) reequiping and getting slapped down/full looted by 50s. Not once was it anyone other than a 50. Not once was a single scrap left except a light once. Being an RP/PK game, why are people with creative and interesting RP ideas restricted. In my mind we place far too much importance on rank and not enough by far on RP creativity. We can all spam dirt, dirt, dirt, dirt or set up a trigger to c hellstream . I mean, while I enjoy travelling in a group and getting to know many interesting people with great ideas for characters and combat, I absolutely hate interacting constantly with mobs and by interacting I mean fighting. Not sure if you have seen RP in any of its other forms, but characters that do not possess the martial or magical powers of the dominant characters of the game are still of great value. RP reflects real life, only with a time/physics/reality shift. Not everyone is a CEO, cage fighter, or the President.

[Mister E]

Sounds like you need a different mud, I dont see how being allowed in a cabal at 45 instead of 50 is going to change all that for you. I am not trying to flame you here, I just think you may have issues that cannot be solved by slightly earlier induction to a cabal. Frankly, if you can make it to 45, you should be able to make it to 50. If you are really sick of being killed and fulled by pinns b4 you pinn, make a human, most pinned players wont be able to touch a 0 exp pen class till you hit 47 or 48. As has been stated a zillion times, cabals are a privelage, not a right. They are for those who show excellence, or at least who put it a lot of effort. If you are not excellent, not getting your pinnacle is not putting in enough effort to get caballed. If you are excellent then odds are you can stomp pinns even if you are at 45 yourself, in which case I am sure your clan imm noticed and is just waiting to cabal you the second you do pinn.

[KRins]

Perhaps. I am in no way claiming to be excellent at all. I can count the PKs I have scored on my hands with some fingers left over. I have never once pinned a character, 48 being the closest I've ever come. Cabals as the ultimate reward for excellent play is just as it should be, but is excellence defined in only one way. Perhaps someone is not a great "twitch" player and loses in combat all the time. Doesn't mean they aren't more valuable to the furthence of the game because of RP than someone who completely owns the entire pbase, but only brings PK talents to the table. In my mind, a combination of the two would be ideal. Of course, you are blessed with crazy typing skills or you aren't. You can learn to a certain degree but there is innate skill involved. You are knowledgable about R/C combinations and how to PK or you aren't. You can certainly learn, but how much you retain or are able to access is again different for each of us. I'm sure of the lesser known players could construct an RP so grand and creative that they would be given some sort of R/C combo that would rock the entire game to its roots.

There is no replacement for knowledge and experience, as I am quite aware. There is also no replacement for imagination. How far do you think this game would get without the dreams of the pbase and IMMs...about as far as PK skills will take you in the real world.

[Zavero]

Just because someone is new doesn't mean you should put them in the catagory of "no cabal" just because they are new and not really good enough. Some of the best PKing experiences are done in cabals. Same with the best role play experiences. Not all, but most. Newbie's shouldn't be excluded from this.

I do however agree with the statement that some classes are more powerful than others at certain levels. I also understand that the immortals would want the most "powerful" in the pk range. Although I don't believe it's fair to all the players. Some people just suck at PK. Cabals are incentive to get better, to role play harder, to try harder, and most likely to stick with it. Making it so the people who aren't "too" good just means they MAY never get good at it. I see the SAME people in the cabals. They delete one/con die one, they get another character and get in the SAME cabal or another one.

I am not trying to act as if I know what the immortals system is for inducting new characters. But from what it seems, not very newbie friendly. I could be wrong.

[Warpnow]

I have, also, recently had a non-pinned cabal char.

Its hard, not impossible. I got in a cbaal at rank 36 on one of my chars in the last year, probably even last six months, but I can't be sure.

[Zrothum]

Get into Nexus, pre-40.

Get into Knight, pre-40.

Get into Tribunal, pre-50.

Then maybe you'd have merit on this thread. I remember having a rank 15 Justice human warrior and it didn't detriment the game at all.