Agility vs. Brute force

[kamikazi]

I am thinking about a certain combo and want to see what are your thoughts on the race selection. I am thinking between ogre and a slith. What warrior would do better? A normal sized more dextrous one, or a giant sized more powerful one?

[kamikazi]

Forgot to mention that the combo might require more precise attacks. That is the reason I have doubts about not picking the ogre.

[The-Nameless]

It depends so heavily on cabl alignment and warrior lore as well. There are a lot of factors involved in making a decision on this. Personally I see ogre as the best choice for folks who are not well versed in warriors because of the huge hp buffer. Slith I think can be stronger but will require much more work.

[Celerity]

Ogres are by far the superior choice in general for the classes they can be. There may be certain situations where other races (esp. fire giant) would be better, but for the most part, you can rely on ogres as being the best choice.

 

Slith aren't even close to the giant races. This isn't meant to say that slith warriors couldn't possibly do somewhat decent, but they will require more work for a lesser return with a higher risk.

 

I can think of a single powerful slith warrior and that was more due to avatar+knight synergy than being a slith. That same slith warrior would have been immensely more powerful as an ogre. Now, compare this to ogre warriors/whatever from whom a great deal of names jump to mind.

[P_body]

Agility = Blademaster

Brute force = Warrior

Pick a race that encapsulates that category to improve raw power potential.

If you're trying to decide which race to use for a warrior lore, there isn't anything in there that I know of that makes Slith a more viable choice over an Ogre at all.

If you're interested in an RP angle, don't adjust the race just for PK power. A slith warrior can be viable. It just isn't as likely to be as "easy" as it might be with an Ogre. But then again, Sliths will have a different set of problems than Ogres will. So don't think that an Ogre will just steamroll because it's an Ogre.

[The-Nameless]

Without discussing lores too much I can say there a few ways a slith is stronger than an ogre, some lores benefit more from higher dex. A shield slith naturally gets more attacks than an ogre. Also an evil glad exotic mastery slith warrior has insane potential.

[P_body]

A shield mastery slith might get more hits than an Ogre, but I still think a shield mastery Ogre warrior is stronger than a slith with the same lore. The racial benefits of Ogre just outweigh the racial benefits of Slith. But, I'm not the expert on warriors.

[Celerity]

Yeah, I severely doubt that the damage potential of a shield-lore slith is even remotely close to an ogre. A slith may get a technically greater (if statistically minor..) number of attack attempts, but the ogre will still be doing much greater damage per round. Better weapon selection (str + ability to use two-handed) as well as the ogre racial bonus to weapon damage will be far more important.

 

"Also an evil glad exotic mastery slith warrior has insane potential."

 

I don't think I'd rank it as insane potential, myself. Usually insane combinations have the word 'cleric' or 'ogre' in them somewhere . I think an evil ogre exotic mastery glad has much greater potential than a slith in the same combo. If you want to maximize 'agility' in warriors, consider a feral.

 

The effect of dex on warrior lores isn't going to influence PK enough to be worth basing your race on it.

 

RP is a completely different matter..

 

All in all, slith warriors are more like a fun experiment or challenge build, but not exactly an optimal build, especially for somebody who asks a question like this.

[kamikazi]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

 

I do believe that the slith would give me more of an RP angle that is something I aim for since, I do not suck only in PK, but in RP as well. I've always enjoyed playing a combo which is though of as a weak one. I might get steam rolled, but when I do kill someone the satisfaction is greater, heh. I hope that soon I will be able to test out what I have in mind and I believe that if it is a slith it will do fairly well against all of them giants. I guess I have the underdog syndrome, heh. You will all probably know who I play, so, please don't hate too much, heh.

[mya]

As P_body said.

Warriors are about brute strength, not DEX.

They run on hit/dam and High STR provides a huge bonus to this.

25 STR is +12/+14

24 Ogre is +10+12

20 Slith is +4/+6

If this wasn't changed. That's +6/+6 hit/dam the ogre will have on the slith.

 

Mathematically you will need 3 rare items or at least 2 uber ones to cover that bonus.

With the right 3 rares you can cover the saves penalty that the magic vulnerability of ogres incur. (extra damage from magic damage is coverver by natural extra HP's)

Storm and Stone giants are even better in this trade off.

 

This is why mathematically a giant is always the best choice.

 

In my view DEX almost never favors a character. It's not having +5-6 dex point that you will improve greatly your landing rates for some skills.

It can be argued that it has a use in evading a bash lock. Since you will be checking the skill at each bash.

Halfling with high DEX and AC would be a prime example, IF they weren't of SMALL size. Given the same gear, a human would have about the same chance to evade a bash lock. While avoiding the deadly 4 rounds bash.

A avian is a more defensive choice regarding this, specially if you need to do stuff in fights like a bard needs. You will resist bashes greatly but you will pay for it with a vuln that can be exploited by many.

 

Sliths in my view are interesting for 2 things. The evil dirt kick resistance, and the  auto-trip. Although the extra tail attack is also interesting.

But why do you need the dirt thing, when you already have blind fighting? Excellent for thieves, but less for a warrior.

Now if you can capitalize on the auto-trip by having access to airtrash or dispel effects, then they can become extremely powerful.

 

While a evil glad exotic mastery slith warrior has interesting potential. A minotaur would be a lot more powerful.

The slith dirt kick protection only comes up vs Savant DK's and Necromancers. The same ones that can lag him with pet bash.

You end up trading one thing you don't need for another you need.

Auto-trip is almost useless because all savants have easy access to flight.

The extra tail attack is usefull, but a Feral would take better advantage of his certain extra attack and fury.

 

A mino of the same lore would be more powerfull in my view.

Giant size.

Charging ability.

And auto disarm gladiator stuff which *might* work with the exotic lore.

Can you imagine the power of a flee charger minotaur with auto disarm?

 

PS: Anyway forgot to mention the Avian Warrior.

The new feign lore is suited for someone who can spam it.

Again a case for DEX (if that is the governing stat) only only really being worth it when you need to use the skill in quick succession.

And the avian bash resistance bonus which will allow you do it over and over vs giant warriors.

Perhaps Evil nexus is the best case due to the chaos weapons cabal skill.

Or Syndicate for the autoblind stuff.

Or Warmaster since their stuff is also automated. You can spam the lore while Warmaster stuff just happens.

[The Forsaken]

What do you want to RP? Forget about how strong the class will be. It's easier said than done, by all means, but much more rewarding. Out of all of my power pk'ers, my favorite toon I ever played was Aelrah by far. An elf ranger that got Avatar. Nothing screamed power about that toon, and he was almost condead before he hit E in Knight, which was when he hit his stride due mainly to the Knight skills at E. The RP, was amazing. I've never had as much fun just logging in than I did with Aelrah.

[kamikazi]

I kind of think that being able to handle two handed weapons in one hand should be allowed to all warriors/berserker classes which lack the strength. If what you say is true and a warrior relies more on brute force than accuracy and the ability to avoid attacks, then normal sized warriors have been gimped for quite some time now. I believe that making warriors and zerkers which are not giant sized, able to handle two handed weapons in one hand is only normal, since they are already gimped, because of their size and the lack of meaning in picking a high dex race if you wish to avoid being hit. As things are now, warriors rely on hit/dam to land hits...What about avoiding them? High dex races which are able to pick the warrior class are at quite the disadvantage here,

[kamikazi]

This is the main reason we only see giant sized warriors running around and if a dextrous one emerges, he deletes quickly, because of the gimping. From some of the fantasy books I've read, I've seen elven warriors beat the crap out of a slow, clumsy giants, because of their finese and agility. In any case, it has been proven that in the world of martial arts, speed beats brute force.

[Celerity]

Your points have been brought up before concerning inferior warrior choices. The staff has been very firm in their stance that inferior combos should be allowed and that race to class combos are not supposed to be equal in power/potential with each other. Personally, I agree with you, but that is how it goes some times...

[kamikazi]

Yeah, but maybe it's time for a change? A change that would bring a certain amount of equality between the different sized warriors? Giant sized warriors rely on their strength and HP...they hit hard and they can soak up a lot more damage than normal sized races. Although...ther little ones are more agile and in any case, they should at least defend better against attacks than their giant counterparts. As things are...normal sized warriors are being owned, because they defend the same way a giant warrior would defend and lack the HP pool. Thus normal sized warriors are only being played from an RP point of view and never, because they have the potential to beat anyone. One good normal sized warrior like Loucheran is not a good example. He was an avatar...he was in Knight...It was seven-eight years ago when people did not have such good item knowledge...in any case it was a one of a kind deal that he was beating people. Normal sized warriors should at least be more deffensive and better at avoiding attacks.

[The Forsaken]

One thing that you did bring up that I happened to like would be let ALL warriors be able to wield two handed weapons in one hand. Same for zerkers. OR you could add it as a selectable skill. Who knows. But it would help some with the appeal of non giant warriors if they could get 2h'ers in 1h.

[kamikazi]

I probably cannot bring a good point, since my English is kind of sucky, but all in all, I do not think that normal, even small sized warriors should be gimped not only by size, but the ability to handle two handed weapons in one hand. It's close to mind that a lot of strength would be required to handle a two handed weapon in one hand, but warriors are masters of all weapons, right? Years of training allow techniques that would let you handle two handed weapons in one hand...no matter your race, or size. Why would smaller warriors not be able to handle somehting that a giant would be? From my point of view, all warriors defend the same...giants hit harder...giants bash harder...giants wield two handers in one hand...What is left for the smaller more dextrous ones? Running from the giants?

[P_body]

the answer, is blademasters.

Otherwise, why not open up all guilds to all races? While this makes some kind of realistic sense, it makes balance a pain. Some races are naturally more adept and have better innate comfort with certain things (skills/guilds etc). Also, you have to have SOME framework to build on. Giants being superior melee while not perfect, does make sense.

[mya]

Dam you beat it to me.

 

"From some of the fantasy books I've read, I've seen elven warriors beat the crap out of a slow, clumsy giants, because of their finese and agility."

Those elven fighters were ... Blademasters.

 

It would be interesting RP wise if Blademasters were a off-set of warriors, just like Healers/Shamans are for Clerics.

 

Regarding medium sized creatures wielding 2 handed weapons in one hand... I disagree.

 

A 2 handed weapon is just to large anatomically to be used in 1 hand by a human. It makes sense for giants because they are much larger than a human.

 

In my view a this thing should be linked to size. So that a giant that becomes medium sized should lose his ability to wield in 1 hand 2 handed weapons. This would mainly benefit battlemages.

Humans enlarging themselves should be able to use this bonus. I know only 3 cases, Battlemages, Nexus and Savants.

 

 

Regarding giants meele... mechanically speaking their bonus is not that great it can't be beaten by skill.

STR effects is just that +6/+6 hit/dam. If you have a magic weapon, their hp over you is also only +100 to 200.

Best weapons tend to be 1 handed, even if they are harder to get.

Superior tactics and some consumables will aid you.

 

Unless you are a Gnome or a Drow, you should be able to match most giant warriors.

Gnomes just get crap STR and DEX on a small sized frame.

While drows get crap HP and no mindflayer.

[The Forsaken]

You can't really use the 'anatomical' argument. Because from that standpoint, the same 'longsword' would be a dagger in the hands of a giant. Obviously not, because a sword is a sword is a sword via code. That dagger a halfing thief uses, is nothing but a toothpick after a giant kills the thief and loots it. So sure, a dwarf warrior could use a two handed weapon in one hand, it would just be a smaller two handed weapon. Dwarf style my brony.

[H&R]

What do you want to RP? Forget about how strong the class will be. It's easier said than done, by all means, but much more rewarding. Out of all of my power pk'ers, my favorite toon I ever played was Aelrah by far. An elf ranger that got Avatar. Nothing screamed power about that toon, and he was almost condead before he hit E in Knight, which was when he hit his stride due mainly to the Knight skills at E. The RP, was amazing. I've never had as much fun just logging in than I did with Aelrah.

 

You sure he was more fun than Azantar?

[kamikazi]

Yeah, what about Azantar The Backstab Killer?

[The Forsaken]

Azantar was a blast, don't get me wrong. So were Poplin, Kanal, Phyrex and Achskel. Wait crap. I forgot abuot Achskel. My insane monk may have tied with the RP joys of Aelrah.

[Dead Voodoo Doll]

Blademaster should be broken down and added as selectable skill choices to the warrior class.

[Mmm Coffee]

Sliths, especially evil sliths, have another racial perk that make them potentially deadly in melee if you time it right.  That, of course, being the shed skill.  Of course, this again benefits thieves a bit more with auto-throw, but you could definitely use it to your advantage as a warrior too, with the right lore/cabal choice.