Weapons effects/Oprogs, AKA auto-damage Wrath.

[mya]

As you know some weapons have special that deal damage.

They used to be a rare sight on some weaker weapons or very powerful limited ones, that gave a small edge.

But now they are all over the place and several weapons have been modified or created which have two of this properties.

This is becoming such a thing that I have had PK's where half the damage has come from this effects.

It completely upsets the melee / spell balance.

For it allows melees to deal damage bypassing defenses, and based on one of their strengths, weapons.

Mages on other hands can't access this as effectively due to a much lower number of attacks, and having to rely on weapons types that don't have this kind of effects.

 

Example of weapons with dual effects.

Rokujan.

Fire Lance.

Onyx lance.

[Anume]

No recent changes here. Rokujan replaced a dagger also very strong, if more specified to a certain race. The other two have been around forever and are both disarmable, so arguably not really a fantastic choice to start with unless you are a fire giant in the fire lance's case.

[f0xx]

What are the double effects of the fire lance and onyx lance?

I know the fire lance does a flaming bite, and I am not even sure what the onyx lance does....

[Magick]

She's talking about things like faerie fire and flamestrike in addition to the wrath damage.  If I'm not mistaken.

[f0xx]

The fire lance and onyx lance don't have wrath damage, iirc.

[Magick]

You are burned by the corrosive acid on an onyx lance.
The toxin has made you glow.
Narkaja's acidic bite grazes you.

 

A dark treant's flesh is seared by the flaming a Fire Lance.
A dark treant is blinded by smoke!
Your flaming bite scratches a dark treant.

 

I use 'wrath' as a catchall for all additional damage done by oprogs.

[P_body]

If THIS kind of damage is doing half of the damage in a fight, then you have bigger problems to worry about than just oprogs, Mya.

 

Worst I've seen in normal cases for a prog doing damage was an injure I think? And that was on a poorly outfitted giant taking a magical attack. There are rare cases where the prog may actually do some damage, but those are very rare and more about vulns hitting, in which case, it's still fine because it's a vuln for a reason and they have other cool perks to offset it.

 

If you can really provide a log where the oprogs are doing even 25% of the total damage dished out, please share.

You are burned by the corrosive acid on an onyx lance.
The toxin has made you glow.
Narkaja's acidic bite grazes you.

 

A dark treant's flesh is seared by the flaming a Fire Lance.
A dark treant is blinded by smoke!
Your flaming bite scratches a dark treant.

 

I use 'wrath' as a catchall for all additional damage done by oprogs.

[f0xx]

If THIS kind of damage is doing half of the damage in a fight, then you have bigger problems to worry about than just oprogs, Mya.

That's exactly what I was thinking, but didn't want to offend my lovely Mya.

 

Not just that, but out of those weapons that Mya mentioned, only the Rokujan has double oprog (wrath + wounding), the other two, have a single oprog.

 

Unless of course, you are talking about a blademaster, who can "give" the wrath ability to a weapon, but those are special cases and can be done to every weapon, so why include only those 3 weapons anyway?

[Pali]

In fairness to Mya, I HAVE had fights between two fairly balanced melees where the oprogs actually did constitute a decent fraction of damage being done... but that's only because they were barely hitting each other with actual attacks (when five rounds go by where all attacks are blocked, those couple mauls from wrath count a lot ).  In melee vs c/c, that's rarely the case, and the oprogs really aren't that much of the damage being done.

[mya]

Errr.... I kind was mistaken...  Sorry about this.

 

Apparently I been fighting a lot of Blademasters this days, and didn't remember that they get that auto-bonus.

Most likely I also tested the Onyx lance on a blademaster.

Darned blade-masters.

 

 

If THIS kind of damage is doing half of the damage in a fight, then you have bigger problems to worry about than just oprogs, Mya.

If you can really provide a log where the oprogs are doing even 25% of the total damage dished out, please share.

 

With high AC and several + defense % you can get pretty decent defense. If you get hit once per round by a weapon, all those wraths and stuff end doing a very proportional damage compared to the melee damage you take.

 

Can't provide log, because ... I don't wish to reveal my character. And with PK logs section gone we will take Pali word that this sort of stuff happens.

 

Still it could be interesting introducing a staff with decent Oprogs that is no-rem or socktable for mages.

So that they don't get left out.

The only decent one is the Staff of fangs, that harms HP, and is easily disarm-able.

 

This reminds me. Perhaps we should make the staff on the Bathhouse no-rem. With the introduction of the no rem staff from the Monastery for goods, and the huge lack of Black hearts, it's hard to get a no-rem staff as an evil.

There are socket-able staffs, but no socket.

Or better yet, perhaps just jump the black heart count. With so many classes having ways to disarm cursed weapons, no reason to make those so rare.

[P_body]

As a melee, i've had chars with -400 to -500 ac woth 105% two handed and 110% parry and they still take decent damage from a melee. Every little bit helps sure. But the instances where the oprog might make a difference are so rare it isnt a balance issue.

No offense meant to you btw. Truely. How you didn't take it that way

[Ayroduth]

Only 3 classes can disarm cursed weapons and its not always as simple as you think.

 

Monks must be in a certain stance.

 

Blademasters must be in a certain stance.

 

Warriors must pick a certain lore. (and only so many decent weapons of that category)

 

I personally have never seen the progs to really turn a fight and I've played my fair share of mages/clerics. And with your comment on the black hearts, I dont think I've seen a single black heart in about 6 months. Where did they all go?

[f0xx]

Errr.... I kind was mistaken...  Sorry about this.

 

Apparently I been fighting a lot of Blademasters this days, and didn't remember that they get that auto-bonus.

Well yes, oprogs become quite an advantage on a blademaster, but I think that compensates. Most melees have fired weapons and monks have their chakeras.

[Atticus]

Mya I can agree on a weapon not mentioned, ammodeans sword. Wrath flame plus a socket, the wrath from bloodvow of course.. has don more Dmg than base attack.