Moderates being looted of non rare non cabal containers.

[mya]

I have seen moderated (smurf) corpses be looted of non rare non cabal cointainers uppon death.

 

How can this be possible?

The very premiss of playing a moderate is to ease the down time with requipment and consumables.

Having someone loot your consumables violates this premiss.

Is it a bug, or a new feature?

 

[hotspring monkey]

I can confirm this happening.

 

Could you, the staff, add that to moderate help-file if it is supposed to be like that.

 

 

- Non-rares (outside of gold) cannot be looted from their corpses.

- Only two rare items may be looted from their corpses by the person

  who killed them.

- In turn, they cannot loot more than two items from the corpse of their

  victims.

[P_body]

I've experienced something similar to this, and I mentioned it to the Staff before. They told me they were looking into it. This is a very different impact though, and so they might not have noticed this issue as well. :/

 

 

From my understanding of Moderates and talking to the Staff, being able to loot non-rares, specifically non-rare containers, is NOT the way the moderate-tier is supposed to work. It is a bug. 

[Erelei]

There's a limit at which items become ownerless. This is roughly 12 ticks, or 288-300 pulses. In this case lower level characters than the victim (20 versus 50) can loot corpses of any items because it's no longer owned and is just a container.

Though this has been increased in the last year, a moderate quitting out the moment they die or quitting out at any duration between the moment and returning to the corpse also makes the corpse ownerless.

[P_body]

Hmm. I wasn't aware the timer was the same for moderates and Ruthless. 

 

 

So essentially, if a Moderate dies in any high level area or at a cabal guard, (Edit: Or if the Moderate is a Newbie and doesn't know how to get back to where they died) their corpse is likely going to be lootable before the Moderate can get back to it. Could the timer for a  Moderate be changed so that the Moderate attributes on the corpse remain in effect until the Moderate logs out or the corpse decays? 

[Erelei]

Considering this is literally never the case, and mostly stems from moderates quitting immediately from dying, and considering those who complain are veterans and not actual newbies (which is why the duration was increased, as stated above), I'm not apt to change it considerably.

 

Corpselook is another option for newbies too, if they are indeed unaware of where they may have fallen. 9 times out of 10, they get back to their corpse.

[f0xx]

What is corpselook?

Me noobi sorry

[Erelei]

CORPSELOOK

 

Syntax: corpselook

 

There may be a time when you fall and can't recollect where. Using the

eyes of the undead, and the powers of the ethereal, you can view through   

the eyes of your once warm corpse and recollect where you may have fallen.

 

SEE ALSO: LOOK

 

[Vnum]: 1400    

[P_body]

Considering this is literally never the case, and mostly stems from moderates quitting immediately from dying, and considering those who complain are veterans and not actual newbies (which is why the duration was increased, as stated above), I'm not apt to change it considerably.

 

Corpselook is another option for newbies too, if they are indeed unaware of where they may have fallen. 9 times out of 10, they get back to their corpse.

 

 

Fair enough. But I gave three instances:

 

1) High level areas you can't get back to

2) Cabal Guard

3) Newb doesn't know how to get back to where they died within 12 ticks.

 

#3 may not be much of an issue.  #1 and #2 are still totally valid and have nothing to do with being a newb or not. Still an issue. A moderate can get looted if they get killed in any kind of a high level area. That puts a nasty little kink in the purpose of being moderate. Doesn't totally undermine it, but takes away from the appeal of playing one. A moderate takes a significant, though not dibilitating hit when it comes to rare count. That's offset with the perceived risk mitigation of losing consumables etc, and a decrease in the loss of rare eq per death. 

 

Would it be difficult, technically speaking, (doesn't mean you'd implement it soon, that is affected by the current backlog and priority of current feature sets) to change the timer from 12 ticks to character log out? That way, the benefit of a Moderate is preserved as long as the player is willing to put in the effort and time to get back the stuff.

[mya]

There's a limit at which items become ownerless. This is roughly 12 ticks, or 288-300 pulses. In this case lower level characters than the victim (20 versus 50) can loot corpses of any items because it's no longer owned and is just a container.

Though this has been increased in the last year, a moderate quitting out the moment they die or quitting out at any duration between the moment and returning to the corpse also makes the corpse ownerless.

 

I'm a bit disappointed that the stance regarding moderates has changed. They used to be a tool for newbies to learn and for veteran players who didn't have the time or will to play the re-equip or re-consumable game. For this they traded quite a bit of power in the form of almost half their rare count.

 

I find it also puzzling how a tool whose main purpose is to prevent looting can be looted. No mater the time.

The reported 12 tics or 6 minutes time frame can also not be enough in some cases. Such as dieing behind a closed unpassable door or an area that requires to navigate a maze.

 

And there are players who will try to destroy all your armor on purpose. I have had it done to my moderates, although not by this method.

[Anume]

Mya, the stance has not changed. This is not a new feature but a part of the old code (look at it, you're one of the guys who has it right?). The time limit has even been increased. If bags are looted from a moderate before this time is over, then this is a bug.

[Volgathras]

Keep in mind that we must also measure our game-balance against people looking for the advantage. This is not a bad thing, but as implementers we have to keep the peeks and valleys to a minimum (in accordance with our balancing policy).

 

What this means for moderates is that they cannot be a complete shield against the harshness of the game world. When moderates were original designed they took a look at the owner decay and chose to keep it as part of the package. I don't see any reason why that should change. Honestly, moderates aren't used for 'newbies' so much as they are people with less than stellar PK prowess. These people understand the mechanics and dangers. If they log off thinking that being moderate will protect their corpse then that's seeking an advantage - one we don't feel is conducive to the balance of the game or the spirit of the tier.

[P_body]

Keep in mind that we must also measure our game-balance against people looking for the advantage. This is not a bad thing, but as implementers we have to keep the peeks and valleys to a minimum (in accordance with our balancing policy).

 

 

That's understandable, and I would wager most of the playerbase completely agrees and appreciates these efforts.

 

 

 

What this means for moderates is that they cannot be a complete shield against the harshness of the game world. When moderates were original designed they took a look at the owner decay and chose to keep it as part of the package. I don't see any reason why that should change.

 

 

 

Volg, please refer to my post above for items #1 and #2.

To recap: If someone dies in a far off area, or even just an area difficult to navigate, the Moderate could easily not get back in 12 ticks.  I think almost everyone would agree that 99% of players who choose Moderate do so not to gain a power spike, but to mitigate a power loss/valley.

 

 

Note: the player probably chose moderate b/c they lack the time commitment or stomach to risk playing the re-equipping eq/consumables game and are willing to take a fixed, 100% guaranteed damper on their power max, in order to have a 100% guaranteed damper on their power min.

 

THIS is what I thought the Moderate tier was for. Guaranteed reduction in power max, for a guaranteed increase in power min. That’s what I get out of the help file. As it stands, this ISN’T what the Moderate tier gives a player. It gives a guaranteed decrease in max power for a lowered probability of hitting min power.

 

 

 

The help file seems to explain Moderates as the “guaranteed for guaranteed” scenario, and gives no mention of the “guaranteed for lowered risk” concept.

If the Moderate tier, as I described, seems to coincide with at least the –general- premise that the Staff agrees the Moderate Tier is for, I would ask an honest question. Do you believe the original designers of the Moderate tier built it perfectly, and that it has no bugs or flaws not intended by its creators? Just because they didn’t change the owner-timer on the corpse originally doesn’t mean they left it in consciously with full awareness of all the implications that would fall forth from it.

 

So I ask you to reconsider your decision not to look into any changes.

 

 

Now, I would also like to make a claim that the scenario where a Moderate may not get back to their corpse within 12 ticks could happen regularly, not just on a rare occasion. To hopefully give some credence to my argument that the current implementation doesn’t give a big enough risk reduction, (what percent reduction exactly, I don’t know, but it seems less than 80%, maybe closer to 60-70%? And remember, it’s a 100% guarantee of reduced power) below are a few areas you could die in where the Moderate tier isn’t likely to help (ranked from least likely to matter to most likely)

Will Matter in Few Cases:

Willow Palm

Crypt Area west of Val (baddie area)

Flying Citadel

Northfields by Harpies by Elium

Underdark (Always a pain finding your corpse there. This is on the line between the two categories IMO)

Will Matter in Many Cases:

Isle of Exile

Harpies by Elium (I always get lost up there. Spent more than 10 minutes, on numerous occasions running around never getting out )

Mt Khorand (Same logic as Harpies)

Volcano

Underwater Elven Kingdom

Forsakenlands

Goblin Area/Glass Spires

Caranduin (Anduin)

Will Matter in (nearly) All Cases:

Isle of Souls

Winter

Three Factions

Gear

Avalon

I can't think of any more off the top of my head. Haven’t Toured Ayulians (sp) Lament yet, not sure if it applies.

Please take into account when reading the list above that the majority of people who would choose Moderate likely don’t know directions as well as you, which probably also contributes to why they die more often, so it isn’t improbable that it will take them longer to get back to any place in the game than the average Ruthless PK’er. Not always true, but I’m focusing on the norm and not the edge case.

 

 

 

Honestly, moderates aren't used for 'newbies' so much as they are people with less than stellar PK prowess. These people understand the mechanics and dangers. If they log off thinking that being moderate will protect their corpse then that's seeking an advantage - one we don't feel is conducive to the balance of the game or the spirit of the tier.

 

 

 

 

I COMPLETELY agree. If the player logs off, their corpse is free game. My suggestion is make the timer permanent as long as the player doesn’t log off. That means, if they die in a far off area, they have to stay logged in until their corpse decays in order to benefit from the Moderate Tier perks. I think that’s a fair and reasonable approach. Do you disagree?

[Anume]

So if we disregard logging off the corpse will only be lootable if you do not arrive on time.

If you are in a high level area and die there, it is not likely that you get looted, expect if group mates do it. If you die there due to a teleport, the danger that your opponent will take it upon themselves to travel there solely to loot a moderate is not that high anyway, unless you have something superrare they really want to get their fingers on. Teleporting should be dangerous.

A rough 6 minutes will suffice to find your corpse in most areas you can get into as a ghost.

[P_body]

So if we disregard logging off the corpse will only be lootable if you do not arrive on time.

If you are in a high level area and die there, it is not likely that you get looted, expect if group mates do it. If you die there due to a teleport, the danger that your opponent will take it upon themselves to travel there solely to loot a moderate is not that high anyway, unless you have something superrare they really want to get their fingers on. Teleporting should be dangerous.

A rough 6 minutes will suffice to find your corpse in most areas you can get into as a ghost.

 

 

Please note, only 7 of the 21 areas I mentioned are high level areas where you wouldn't go without a group. The others are just areas that may be easy to get lost in/difficult to find the exact same room again.

 

While you, or myself, or a majority of the playerbase here may not struggle to find their corpse on say, Mt Khorand (okay, I might have trouble ) those who would play a Moderate are much more likely to lose their way.

 

Also, I'd point out that people attempt PK of non-groupmates in Winter, Factions and Discord on a not-infrequent basis. Personally, I've chased people down through Winter, Steel, Magic, Evermore, Discord, and Gear (only once, and not successfully) to PK  a non-group member (and I wasn't playing a q-class ). It happens there too.

 

 

All that aside, because I don't want to derail the main point. 

 

My Main Point:

 

What's the point of the Moderate Tier? I thought it was a guaranteed reduction in max power for a guaranteed increase in min power, aka a moderated tier, or averaged tier. Never super powerful, never super weak like a baby kitten.

 

Is this not the point of the Moderate Tier?

[Magick]

What's the point of the Moderate Tier? I thought it was a guaranteed reduction in max power for a guaranteed increase in min power, aka a moderated tier, or averaged tier. Never super powerful, never super weak like a baby kitten.

 

Is this not the point of the Moderate Tier?

 

 

Honestly, moderates aren't used for 'newbies' so much as they are people with less than stellar PK prowess. These people understand the mechanics and dangers.

Both vets and newbies, it's there for those who are, as Volgathras stated, less than stellar at PK.  A vet through negligence (such as myself) or a newbie through being a newbie.  By the time you've reached 50, you should be aware of the dangers to some degree.  This includes maze-like areas and no-ghost areas.  It's there to mitigate being raped repeatedly by the same people in your PK range.  I'm not saying that the current PBase will do that, just it keeps honest people honest, of sorts.  Yes, it lowers the max power and raises the minimum ... kinda.  We've digressed from the main point of the thread, but as far as the moderate tier is concerned, people overlook a critical part of the help file.

 

- Once killed by someone, that person cannot kill them again for an extended  period of time UNLESS they re-initiate combat with their killer, or attempt  to assault their killer's cabal.

Yes, the rare exchange is merely quid pro quo.  Sure, keeping non-rare items means downtime is reduced (the point being the newbie doesn't have to spend the majority of their time reequiping).  But the inability to be attacked for a period of time is what makes this one way the staff has taken measures to help less PK oriented people ease into PK a bit better.

 

 

Summary (and back on point a bit):

1 - Looting containers from smurf corpses is a bug.

2 - FL is dangerous.

3 - Being a smurf mitigates that a little.

4 - Being a smurf doesn't completely prevent you from losing your all non-rare stuff and most of your rare stuff.

5 - See point 2.

6 - You can't be re-attacked for a long time, use that time to learn the lands to prevent yourself from being unable to get back to your corpse again.

 

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

[P_body]

@Magick--Didn't think I'd derailed the thread with my comments. I thought I was right on track with the purpose of the thread.

 

 

Valid points you outlined.

 

To answer your question, currently the Moderate tier does NOT guarantee a minimum power level. It DOES guarantee a max power level. But the point, as you described, isn't to have a guaranteed power min as I was suggesting.

 

You suggest the Moderate Tier's purpose is to decrease the likelihood of hitting said power min and to prevent a multi-kill scenario.

 

Fair enough. 

[Celerity]

P_body, although I and probably others understand your main point about the concept of moderates giving up max power to raise min power...the head of staff has made it clear she does not see it the same way. The staff believes that the rule of danger being present in FL is more important. While this is an inconsistency in design, their stance is that moderates do not need to be changed because (to them) the core rule that "FL is dangerous" trumps the conflicting rule of "moderates don't lose eq".

 

So it may be understood that moderates generally do not lose eq except in situations that the staff deems would make it too safe for them. That line of safety is drawn at ~12 ticks or log off currently, and the tier does not provide eq protection at cabal guards. In other words, the moderate tier is not a certain raise of min power as introduced, but is in fact merely mitigation of loss on player death. It would be nice if the staff's stance was made more clear in the help.

 

Personally, I've never been a big fan of the moderate system...something about making characters absolutely weaker does not seem like a nice solution for improving their skill. A little protection from multi-kill isn't going to really turn the tables in nearly all cases---but the inability to have power spikes will turn tables in a considerable amount of PK. Enforced mediocrity is a very poor instructor. The entire point is to teach people how to survive and win, not condition them to less damaging deaths. Features like the Warmaster challenge system are far more effective teachers. However, since the moderate tier is purely optional at chargen, I'm not really against it if some player deems it worthwhile for whatever reason.

[Imoutgoodbye]

After having played several moderates, I find the tier to be neither good for newbies nor advantageous for veterans.  The Journeyman flag is a nice idea to enhance it especially given that it can be applied to the "Ruthless" tier.  That said, all this talk about the "spirit" and "danger" of the game only upholds the current status and does nothing to change the game.  So, FL remains a dangerous place which makes one wonder what exactly that is supposed to mean and what this means for the players.

 

Now that we have ruled out (after several years) that there will be few (more probably no) new players coming, it would seem advantageous to examine the Moderate system from a stance of what the Moderate players would like.  It took a majority and a good campaign by a few IMMs (who I shall not name, but most of you can guess who most of them were) to even get that majority in place to push hard for the Two-Tiered PK system.  Unfortunately, as with most things,  I swear this went through the United States Congress because it came out the other end flawed and then was continually repealed and changed as it was seen fit; not just from bugs, but from complaints and perceived bugs.

 

So, how about instead of doing something in the spirit of what was, listen to players, like me, who consistently attempted PK, but still rack up an 0-26 PK record because...well, I shall not go into specifics.  The point is, the game itself contributes to keeping the power maximum down.  It is in the very code of the game to destroy equipment upon death.  Stop punishing those of us who want to play casually.  

 

The Moderate System needs an upgrade.  I challenge anyone who thinks so to remove yourself from this game and not return until this happens.  I also want it acknowledged that a player deserves to know SOMETHING about an opposing cabal member, that the cabal warfare system is outdated and does not promote RP in any way, but allows for silent PK.  

 

I shall be the first to walk away.  

 

Sincerely,

 

The Herald of Andraste

 

P.S. I don't care if anyone thinks this is drastic...if you want change, fight for it.

[Vaerick]

With the introduction of journeymen and the fact that moderate is not solely limited to only new/not pk heavy people (you have to apply for journeyman but not moderate tier) I would argue this:

Moderates are a way of reducing time constraints of fl for new and vet players as well as giving some level of protection to people not as keen to pk. Journeyman is an actual pk enhancement for people who are newish to pk.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Can't talk about time constraints right now.  Bills to budget, full time work, and full time university along with a family...

 

If anything changes, someone can e-mail me:  valek_z@hotmail.com

 

I quite simply don't even want to maintain my forum presence at this point.  Let the delusions continue.

[Vaerick]

I'm here to tell you no amount of equipment will -ever- get you pk's. Decked to the teeth or in basics, it doesn't matter. The -only- things that will get you pk's is terrain knowledge (how to track the sucker down), class knowledge (knowing what you can do to who and vice versa), and preparation (what I mean here is- if someone is decked and they beat the tar out of their foe, but they can't chase them no equipment in the world will help that). I don't think there's anything that can be coded (other than having a class for exploration to 30 and looting restrictions post) that can help with terrain knowledge or class knowledge- these things come with time and play. If you are solely talking about "getting kills" here/competing in the pk realm of things with the strong foes.

 

In any case, if you look at the world today you can say, "geeze, this is a crappy world. Look at the injustice, look at the inequality, etc" and you'd be right. However. If you look at the world compared to what it was years and years and years ago, it's a hell of a lot better place. Such is fl. I'm sure if we can figure out better ideas than what we have, we can make it happen.

[Erelei]

How many times have you departed, Valek? I'm not going to go out of my way to email you if something changes. I can't keep you here - I can only attempt to make things more enjoyable.

 

The point of this thread was a question as to why this was like this, and why this was like that. Mainly, a vet player died, and had some non-rare EQ looted and decided to bring it to the Pbase instead of bringing it to prayer so we could figure out exactly what occurred.

 

In all this, speculation has decided to bring you out again to smash hard into a game I know you love, and tell everyone you're not coming back until it's fixed. That's a bullshit stance to take, and considering I listen and gauge every single request for change (and usually do make those changes) I'm incredibly disappointed that you'd take such an antagonistic view point. I hope you have a minute between all your bills and your life (oh wait.. I have those too.. go figure..) to come back and read my post, and constructively post a thread on prayer, or in Ideas and Suggestions and explain how exactly you want Moderates changed to make it better for them.

 

Why you ask? I don't play moderates. I can't tell you what their power spike is. I can't tell you what their minimum power is. I can guess, via code, what it SHOULD be. Instead, we have everyone here (myself included) arguing what moderates were supposed to be as opposed to what they are now. 

 

 If you have a suggestion, suggest it in a new thread so we know what we're going to be looking into. The least you can do is give us some ideas because god knows, I have absolutely no ideas on how to make one side of the player base happy and the other side happy at the same time regarding moderates.

[Atticus]

Give moderates their own uber owner only backpack. It can be called the FANNY PACK. However it has to be worn around the waist. I'll accept the Nobel peace prize at anytime.

[dewaholic]

When was it established that few to no new players would be coming to the game? I havent been here that long, maybe 8 months, and I brought along a friend and a brother. New players happen. Heck if they didnt why would we continue to vote on TMS?