Moderates being looted of non rare non cabal containers.

[mya]

The point about PK protection is mostly moot for most moderates. Once you get cabaled you get killed, and once killed your standard will be taken. And when you try to recapture you will be auto-engaging the main guard at the death of the altar with your standard.

 

"After having played several moderates, I find the tier to be neither good for newbies nor advantageous for veterans."

I find this untrue. It's an excellent tool for those who are really trying to learn PK. The fact that you can die 5 times a day without a single piece of your gear crumble is amazing.

 

"What this means for moderates is that they cannot be a complete shield against the harshness of the game world."

Moderates never were a complete shield against looting. Immediately when you die your opponent can loot all your gold and 2 of the ~10 rares you can wear.

What everyone thought was that no one could take your common armor and the 8 (or 12) remaining rare items. Apparently if they wait they can.

 

"Teleporting should be dangerous."

It is, extremely. In my view the only classes worth teleporting with are classes with the Teleport spell. All others are to risky.

And them an invoker will mostly die on a bad teleport. In my opinion only the DK has a good chance of coming out alive.

Which is offset by being the class that most loses if it dies. A full level of his malform. Good thing it's no longer several.

 

Is the need for other players to loot consumables of a moderate player who probably chose that tier for that exact reason (not having the time or will to spend on re-eq/re-consumable gathering?

Because if that is the case, then please change it so that Moderates containers can be looted 100% of the time from the moment of death, but the common non-container equipment cannot ever be looted.

 

And Valek, don't be so heavy on the drama. I was heavily against Moderates before it was implemented, but I know how to admit that I was wrong. Moderate tier was an amazing idea and still is an amazing tool for players.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Why?  I'm hoping to push for change. Starting with the the hard line "This is Cabal RP" one, which I attempted, via Prayer, to make changes to, going on an individual case, but it got pushed aside and I thought to myself "I should ask Raargant for help", but then realized he's a busy man and this is too petty to push.  The "this is just Valek being Valek" argument is getting old.  This is Valek, someone who was once an ardent supporter of the staffs and ardent supporter of staff decisions, becoming weary of how the casual player is treated because of some misconceived perception from those playing the Ruthless tier.  It all ends up breaking down into rhetoric that doesn't matter.  

 

And it's not me that needs appeasing, which I'm trying to prove.  It hurts me as much as anyone, when I have to say "player loss", "no new players coming" (no offense, but most of the time new player handles are old players returning or current players who asked for a name change due to a stigma attached to their old account), or "fight for what you want".  The appeal to leave is one that has been whispered on facebook pages, on chat rooms (like one you once had), and in the confines of private messaging.  

 

Why, yes, many of us have bills and opportunity costs.  I specifically would NOT want you to e-mail me nor any other member of the FL staff save one.  The only member of the staff I implicitly trust is Volgathras.  It's difficult for a high functioning sociopath to trust, after all. Although, this behavior is only criminal and antagonistic because it pushes the normative bounds set forth as "rules" by the staff, rules that have made little sense to anyone as the years have gone by.

 

No, the only true way to change this time is a call for people to leave, to end the game.   Do I love it?  Sure.  Do I care anymore what happens to it?  Not really.  Because, in the end, we all have better things to do.  I suggest people go do these things until the frustration leaves the game.  There's no point in getting upset over a game.  There's also no point in being upset over me expressing myself.  

 

Although, as I finish this, I wonder how much of a red marker I've earned and how long of a ban I've gotten myself.

[Anume]

Valek, there is absolutely zero constructive content in your post above. Why are you wasting both your and out time with this kind of post.

If you want a change, suggest what exactly you wish to change and how it would affect balance. You've been on staff, so you know how these things work.

[Vaerick]

Also a thing to note would be- the game is not perfect, nor does it match the perfect examples that we have in our head. To boot, FL is what it is, and where as change and fresh ideas and concepts have been flowing, deciding whether or not to play based on if your obscure, undefined, and not detailed desires, you're probably gonna be disapointed. Like living in a country, you play the game as it is, and continue to work on fixing the rules if you aren't in agreement. You don't get a perfect world overnight. And honestly, you acting as though because things aren't just how YOU invision them, you'll make a post about how you're the poor martyr and not play until they're fixed? Well, I'd rather focus on worries and concers other people have that are actually going to play.

[Imoutgoodbye]

Straight from the Prayer Forum, after I was fed up with hard coded vendettas and tired of putting energy into RP'ing with people when it was never going to happen because the PK was allowed to trump the RP:

 

I'm irritated when I can't even begin any type of conversation with an EDITED (frustrated by an inability to engage this in any way) and it all comes down to a hard coded Vendetta that upholds the right to "You must die because you are Warmaster".  I'm also ashamed to see this go in the opposite direction from Warmaster towards Savants.  I understand FL is PK and RP enforced.  I'm not trying to say anyone person or cabal is trashy, but the level can be upped.  A game should be fun for everyone involved.  Which is why I did participate in the PK with X and Y.  I just never got anything back in return which was disappointing.

 

That said there is a belief that cabal politics can be more than just the hard coded vendettas, cabal points, and capture the flag.  When Volg first came up with the idea of RP points, it was an unclear concept on how it would work, how to quantify the substance and how to reward it without tarnishing the PK aspect.  Yet, every time I set foot in a cabal, I watch certain things happen and the progression looks something like this, using Justice/Tribunal and Hunter/Syndicate as examples:

 

J kills H.

J full loots H.

H tries to re=equip.

H gets killed again by J.

J takes what little H has.

H quits for a few days.

Process repeats in a few days, H deletes his pinn.

 

As the player base declines, we began to see something new:

 

T kills S.

T full loots S.

S re-equips.

T kills and full loots S.

S deletes his pinn.  

 

Around this time, the ability to delete pinns gets removed and the player base has declined further, but the two-tiered system becomes introduced.

 

T kills S.

T takes little or nothing from S.

S grabs basic things.

T kills S, takes little to nothing.

S actually progresses in his cabal.

 

And that is great!  That is amazing!  Retention is starting to show!  I love it!  I made it to T because that last format takes pressure down.  It's a beautiful thing.  As I've stated, though, spending 20-30 minutes requesting high level items and having to watch Jayce pop in and tell me if he catches me requesting again, I'm dead, does piss me off.  He has the right to kill me since we're Vendetta, but it takes away from the individual character.  I do not doubt Jayce or his RP, but I would have liked to see more.  It  was his decision to not show me that, I respect it, but I feel the attitude towards enforced PK (Cabal Warfare specifically) reinforces the idea that the two cabals should never have to have any meaningful interaction beyond slaughtering each other.

 

It was difficult to even get anything from A and there''s a B who is in Hourglass.  Talking to the giant was often like pulling teeth.

 

And my mind is never made up.  I do want more RP to go with the PK.  The PK has a more permanent and lasting negative effect.  I'm not promoting tearing down all that is FL, but, an examination of the Top 5 muds should say something towards this.  What made FL exciting 13 years ago no longer holds true today.  

 

That I was unable to do anything with a qrace and qclass to promote myself within the cabal warfare system simply shows me that the PK is the more exciting aspect for retained players.  Another player encouraged me to join the Heralds and I shall do so because I cannot get enough of the RP I desire from within the more traditional and respected aspects of the game.  

 

I don't know how it can be fixed.  It's a delicate balance between player, staff, and game, of retention of veteran players and attraction of new, something that has been beat over the head for the last 5-6 years.  All I can offer is what I am told by the five players I once brought here, all of who left.  That, if there is a direction to be go in, would be it.  The desire of the players who have left with the desires of the players who have stayed.  We all know it's not a simple subject and one we are all tired of beating ourselves with.

 

I'm sick to death of talking about balance.  Everything keeps coming back to PK.  I want to see the existence of the RP NOT put into jeopardy by the PK, which has over and over trumped RP and I can point out again and again and again prime examples and overarching historical examples, but what do I know?  I give and have given, but cannot give you the numbers game because I am not good with numbers.  Which is why I can't balance your game.  And, yes, Anume, I know how it works.  Everything gets examined, but what happens in the end is up to one or two people.  

 

Speaking of lack of content, I'm bored with being painted as a martyr.  I see and understand the rhetoric some of you wish to use.

 

So, why are we still stuck in a mode that isn't creating a defining change?  Why are we still stuck in the "spirit" and the "danger"?

[Anume]

I still do not see an actual change proposal from you here. I doubt very much most players would be happy if we removed the pk aspect from the game.

[Imoutgoodbye]

As much as I have not offered a change proposal, I have not asked to have the PK aspect removed.  I was making good progress with PK, coming closer and closer.  This isn't about PK, though.  This is how PK continually trumps RP over and over in quantification and in quality.  People keep asking and focusing about PK.  Who wants to keep going in a game, that at its core, is all about the PK?  The end game becomes not what you can show, not how you can interact, but how you can rise above the rest.  It becomes cliched.  By not giving a change proposal I am keeping myself and any bias out of this.  

 

It's not my job to make the player base happy.  I removed myself from that when I left the staff which is an entirely different matter. I'm pointing to flaws.  I'm giving my personal perspective on what kills the end game, what removes motivation from a player. I went 0-26 on one character, endured silence and boredom all the way to nearly the end of V in a cabal...

 

I'm just here to say there' an issue.  One issue which I am presenting.  What you do with that is up to you.

[f0xx]

Noone stops you from RPing, Valek.

But trying to present your opinion as a fact is starting to become pretty annoying.

 

You are right, PK > RP.

 

And that's how it should stay.

[Enethier]

Absurd. Being an RP player far more than a PK player, I have found that despite my past quarrels with the disparity between the two and their rewards in the past, the focus has actually been shifted away from PK. We have had more global plots in the last year and a half than I can count. Most everyone has been involved in one, including and especially those that PK often. Thulgan, Tkanzhar, Sylf, Ekhurift, Ilthrias, Sonnael, Rathanous, the list goes on and on of people that PK, but also deliver and participate in amazing RP.

 

Which, to me, is evidence that PK is not, in fact, ruining the game.

 

Furthermore, this notion that PK is bad, or that it is becoming excessive, is just plain insulting to the game. First of all, this is a PK mud and an RP mud. Therefore it isn't ruining the game, it is the game, or at least a very large part of it.

 

Finally, I am a little annoyed that you're effectively saying that there is no RP that transcends PK, chiefly because I have managed to do that for a year and a half. I have been attacked, sure, but that comes with the territory. I RP through it all, and it is very rewarding, even if I die. Why? Because I haven't succumbed to this foolish notion that in FL death = losing. You can RP more than adequately if you're willing to embrace it. This notion that you can pick and choose RP interactions is simply childish. That's not RP, that's singleplayer story telling with guest appearances. If anything, that is what will kill the environment of this game.
 

[Imoutgoodbye]

Hey, it's your game.  Enjoy it.  I'll stop pointing things out and asking for change.  I don't need to "embrace" your way of thinking at all.  I DEMAND RP.  I DEMAND it.  If you can kill me, you can give me 3 *&*&** minutes of emotes or tells or SOMETHING.  Keep a player interested, keep a player invested.  That cool title, that cool restring, doesn't mean anything if you cannot back it up to the people you kill.  

 

But, I see I won't get the discourse I'm looking for, just "this game is awesome, it's the best game on the planet, there's nothing wrong with it, it's all in your head".  Because, as we look around us, it's obvious I'm what's wrong with this game.  

 

Good luck.  I promise, I have spent the last hour taking screen shots and saving them.  Of Prayer Room Posts, of this thread, and my logs of past conversations with IMMs.  I'll show you childish in five months.  I promise.

[Magick]

... And we're now way off topic.  Sorry Mya, but your thread has now seriously been derailed.

[Trick]

Lol!!

[J.Twendrist]

If you went 0-26 it's your own fault. Read the Art of War. No one can deliver victory to an enemy but you. Between journeyman, the essays and hints on the forum, and people willing to help it's just a matter of practice and learning.

 

As for the RP aspect. Please stop making demands on behalf of everyone. Personally, the last thing I want after someone gets an easy or cheesy kill on me is to sit around listening to them talk about how great they are.

 

You don't have to pk to rp. Herald and Merchant are largely designed for these. Royal/Noble is also an option for a goal as well. Plenty of people focus solely on rp.

 

And yes, this thread is way derailed.

[mya]

 

"this game is awesome, it's the best game on the planet, there's nothing wrong with it, it's all in your head".  Because, as we look around us, it's obvious I'm what's wrong with this game. 

 

Valek, the game has only become better and better over this years. A shame that we no longer have 30 PC's online to go back to those interaction packed afternoons.

 

What you need is a break and some RL vacations for some relaxing rest and fun time.

When you come back try to condeath your moderate Avian DK of yours.

[J.Twendrist]

Also I don't understand your argument. Way back when, when there were ton's of people on, it was nothing but a pkfest or so I'm told. I came around 3.0, and there were a few more than what we have, but nothing like the numbers I'm told walked around back then. There is certainly a great deal more protection AND rewards for rp now than there ever was before. You saying all this is bad, and we have to do everything different to get more people would only produce an even more brutal pk enviroment, thus defeating your own purpose.

[The Forsaken]

\ I want to see the existence of the RP NOT put into jeopardy by the PK, which has over and over trumped RP and I can point out again and again and again prime examples and overarching historical examples, but what do I know?

 

 

You're wrong. And I've been more than slightly upset in the past about that. You say RP is put into jeopardy by the PK, which has over and over trumped RP. That's not true.

 

I'll come out and say it because the majority of you either know, or have made educated guesses. I play Zoichan Anthala. Recently, my city of Val Miran was taken by the Knights. It kinda sucked. But, why do I think it sucked? Well because I (no gloating intended) wrecked the Knights in PK. I'm not sure what my record was off the top of my head with Sylf, but it was around him winning one to me winning maybe seven or eight. (stupid tiger stance)

 

Fact is, Knight and Caohamanhihairi still took over Val Miran. Not through PK, through RP.

 

Don't tell ME pk trumps rp. Because it doesn't. And you know what? As an avid PK'r and habitual RP'r, I'm ok with it regardless of how much it upsets me. Because while PK makes the game appealing, RP keeps it alive.