Character Death Means Something To Some People

[Unknown Criminal]

Im actually quite annoyed today, ive pinned 3 chars in the last week with next no PK experience in years

(because there is a lack of players) and getting pwned by race/class/cabal/equipment guys at pinn. It hard and frustrating

to take my own chars serious when they are getting 2 rounded while trying to roleplay my characters personalities,

I dont even want to think of how a true newbie to this game would feel.

 

UC

[f0xx]

I don't mean to offend you, and I don't know who you play, but from my experience here, when one usually says "I get owned by the big guys at pinn because I roleplay my character's personality", I've found it usually means "I act like an asshole and get treated like such."

 

Once again, I don't know the details of your situation(s) and RP, so if this is not the case, please excuse my incorrect assumption.

[Naruthiron]

***DISCLAIMER***  The following is a standpoint as a player. I do not speak for the immortal staff. I am just too lazy to try to remember my old forum login information. What follows is personal opinion, and does not reflect in any way decisions of the staff, and should not be taken as an official stance on this subject.***DISCLAIMER***

It is important to remember that while fostering a nurturing environment for new and returning players is a priority, so is maintaining an environment that supports freedom of action within the boundaries of the rules. That is a fancy way of saying "We (the players) want the game to be supportive of those struggling with the learning curve, but we (the players) don't want to impose undue restrictions on others that would ultimately cause us to bleed veteran players." 

From a game design standpoint, we need a healthy balance between attracting new players, and retaining seasoned players. Rolling out these relatively new concepts (like the adventurer class, the journeyman flag, moderate PK tier, and healthy discussion of how better to tweak the "first ten hours" of the MUD) are our attempt at fostering a better environment for new players. If you are struggling, I highly suggest taking advantage of everything you can. It may feel like a severe limitation to take some of them, due to restrictions that come with their use (no using journeyman or moderate tier for quest-stuff, rare limit for moderates, level 30 max and no PK for adventurer) it is done with good reason. Each of these is intended to reduce the learning curve, not circumvent it. These limitations, then, are not only a means to prevent abuse, but also a necessary tool for learning and progression. Instead of having to learn every aspect of the game simultaneously, they allow you to learn different aspects at your own tempo. 

 

However, we cannot afford to lose sight of what perpetuates our game: players that stick around. A revolving set of players is a poor way to keep the game relevant, as we would be missing the consistency that is paramount to not only game structure, but also game community and even game balance. These experienced players, then, need to feel less constrained (so long as they follow the rules!) and be able to execute their characters to the best of their abilities (as all players should). For this reason, it is (as it should be) the player's decision how they will act or react in a given situation. If that action/reaction includes 2-rounding a newer player, then that is part of the game. It is important to remember that they are playing characters as well. This is, after all, an RP-enforced MUD.

 

Now, there have been stances taken to limit "newbie farming". Because we want to have that supportive environment, there are times were the immortals have (from what I have read, not me personally) stepped in to mitigate the issue. These cases should be rare (and I've yet to see one in my tenure).

Where this post dives deepest into personal opinion is here. With the tools we already have in place, it is the responsibility of the player to determine that they need them. It is also the responsibility of the player to look after themselves. If you are not ready for the level 50 game, do not bring yourself into it. One of the best parts of the level system and PK range system is that it allows your experience to be tailored to what you want. As players, we are able to disable experience gain. We can also simply stop doing quests or killing things if we can't be bothered to type "autoexp". Our newbie system is not perfect, and it is not a stretch to say that some of this info (like the autoexp command) is not advertised at the level required to reach new players. That is a drawback of the helpfile system. Unless you look for it or something similar, you probably won't find it. However, the responsibility still falls on the player. You can't pick and choose your exposure at any level. Just like any other game, sport, class, or anything else in life: you should not be in a race for the end content if you are not yet ready to execute on that level. You don't teach calculus to kindergartners. You don't put rocket football kids in the super bowl. You don't do MMO raids in your first hour of the game. That same concept applies here, and I do not think that should change. Learn to crawl before running a marathon.

 

There are a plethora of tools at your disposal to help you learn, and many, many people in game and on the forums that would love to help in any way they can. But you have to utilize them. You have to be proactive about learning. If we go about telling genocidal vampires to pull punches, archangels to stop smiting the wicked, and eco-terrorists to stop taking on the establishment, we stand to lose so much more than we gain, both as a game and as a community.

 

There is nothing stopping you from playing your characters and their personalities. This is a living, breathing world, however. Things are going to happen that you don't account for, or that you as a player are not able to perform on the level expected of your character by their story. That is a limitation, unfortunately, that really only you can resolve in respect to your characters. 

[dewaholic]

DOnt feel bad. My first pin got steam rolled so hard my next two where healers... Anyone remember Nehonas? The DK trying to get into warmaster? I think the first thing I did was challenge Tkanzhar or Zoichan. One of the two, I challenged both in quick succession. TKanzhar was so moved by my n00bness that he tried to dress me. In fact he gave me Adeptus face! Which may have just been a cruel joke becaue that in itself got me killed pretty quick.

 

Although 3 pins in one week is quite a bit. Im still playing my fourth and going strong.

[Mmm Coffee]

Yeah, 3 pinns in a week?  That's pretty cray.  Not sure what cabal's chars would consistently be going after non-cabal'd unless you're bountied.  Of the three you've pinned, stick to the most PK-viable until you start winning.  Log all your fights, find out what new tactics people are using that you haven't picked up on.

[Anume]

I think the biggest part of your frustration is that you were a top notch pker before your very long break.

It will take time to get back into it.

You'll need time to learn new areas and new eq.

You'll also need a lot of practice to get back into the pk game. Dying will be a part of it.

You know how it goes, first step is always to not die, second is to get the kill in, and the second very very often does not even come into play even or esp. if the top pkers battle each other.

So, learn to avoid dying again.

Then get to the killing part.

Yeah, and I'll go with my usual suggestion. Do a WM and fight anything that moves. Lose. Die. Learn.

[Aulian]

Im actually quite annoyed today, ive pinned 3 chars in the last week with next no PK experience in years

(because there is a lack of players) and getting pwned by race/class/cabal/equipment guys at pinn. It hard and frustrating

to take my own chars serious when they are getting 2 rounded while trying to roleplay my characters personalities,

I dont even want to think of how a true newbie to this game would feel.

 

UC

 

Have you gotten soft UC? Its not like you to complain. 

 

Even from areas you remember you should be able to put together a competitive set of armor. Aabahran is still a dangerous place - all the rats are armed, don't get caught in the maze. 

[Twinblades713]

Have you gotten soft UC? Its not like you to complain. 

 

Even from areas you remember you should be able to put together a competitive set of armor. Aabahran is still a dangerous place - all the rats are armed, don't get caught in the maze. 

Beautifully said.

[Ellwyn]

TKanzhar was so moved by my n00bness that he tried to dress me. In fact he gave me Adeptus face! Which may have just been a cruel joke becaue that in itself got me killed pretty quick.

 

LOL. That statement made me laugh so hard...

 

Some random thoughts on the topic. No particular point, just things that come to mind as I read people's post:

- The player base and immortal staff are extremely welcoming and helpful to new players. From my first step into the lands till now, this has resounded consistently through all my time here.

- Learning curve to gain high success here is super super high. So many advantages can be gained through knowing things that others don't and much of that only comes with experience. This is only made harder with new changes since the older players have already tapped into these benefits by the time new/returning players are still learning them (or maybe don't know about their addition altogether).

- I too have a super competitive personality and can understand how you feel, Unknown Criminal. There are just some people you face and it's inhumane how vast the power difference is. Feeling such an unsurmountable wall as a competitive person who wants to be able to conquer any obstacle can be very frustrating.

- I can only echo Anume's response. Try rolling a WM or a char that you will not care about pdeaths on. Fight anything and everything to help shake the rust off and learn about exactly what it is you might need to overcome those gaps in power you are experiencing.

[Aulian]

Emp_newb has gone a long long way to prove to everyone that you can have perfectly viable, vastly competitive moderate pinnacles.

He has and can beat top tier pinns without or very limited rares so equipment and the latest gear isn't everything.

Spend time building a fantastic base knowledge; running, chasing, shortcuts; your enemies habits and recalling etc as well as a good knowledge of easily achievable and easily accessible rates. This will lead to domination.

[Celerity]

On a side note, if you are getting smacked around easily, it probably means you are making some major, easy-to-correct errors. Shoot out some logs from the two of your pinns that you don't want to be your main and you'll get feedback. Otherwise, you could PM me (or just post the logs in prayer) for private feedback. Although certain combos do suck, you shouldn't be dying easily even with the worst of them. Killing is a different manner entirely.

 

If you don't have any logs, make sure to log next time. If you don't get smacked around again...problem solved anyways

 

My advice is to not assume that class/race/cabal matchups are going to be the same power as they were when you left. For example, you can't just wield a staff and destroy any berserker nowadays. Many balance changes have been made, most of them very small, but the aggregate effect over time can be quite substantial, especially when you are expecting/predicting something else.

[Unknown Criminal]

Have you gotten soft UC? Its not like you to complain. 

 

Even from areas you remember you should be able to put together a competitive set of armor. Aabahran is still a dangerous place - all the rats are armed, don't get caught in the maze. 

 

Soft? me? nah:)

 

My frustration came from taking my char out of his safety zone to (rp chat) with 2 caballed chars and getting blindsided, ive been trying and working on a few other peoples chars in game to add a little 'extra gameplay plot' that doesnt involve padding a pk record but their noses seem to be stuck up in the air trying to be the alpha dog. The outcome of the blindside is that I wont go out of my way to enhance that players game experience anymore, that might not seem like much but when there is usually less then 5 people on including me (in my opinion) its a bad move to screw over the limited amount of people who are willing to go the extra mile and play with you.

 

My second frustration is the EQ gap where my ac is floating the -400 mark and im wielding a staff so im pretty ok to get into a fight. In one battle I got dirt kicked and lost 400 hp in 1 round which doesnt seem right to me but I can suck up an incredible offense, no problem. The issue im seeing is that not only is there an incredible offense hitting me (melee vs mage) BUT the endless amounts of group sanctuary that backs it up, why are melee classes able to get such a crazy offenses AND virtually unlimited 8-10 hour group sanctuary?

 

The other battle I was in I took about 200 damage in the first round BUT I managed to land a dispel magic, im thinking he is going to flee and 'vial up' so Ill have a split second to get an advantage but before I could blink he ate a pill of sanctuary and did another 200 damage in round 2 forcing me to flee.

 

Melee classes are meant to do all their damage through their opponent sanctuary while a mage needs to rely on dispelling sanc and then doing their damage, thats how its always been. What im seeing since my return is a boost in melee damage output coupled with saves AND unlimited sanctuary where mages are pretty much the same as before.

 

I dont mind getting my backside kicked because I know ive been out of the game for while, im just stating my frustrations from the POV of a new player, an old school player and former coder

 

UC

[Erelei]

So how do you suggest we fix this, UC? I'd like some ideas.

[f0xx]

 

 

...while a mage needs to rely on dispelling sanc and then doing their damage, thats how its always been.

 

Sorry, that's just not true

[Unknown Criminal]

So how do you suggest we fix this, UC? I'd like some ideas.

 

 

What im seeing is that they are taking too much damage in too short a period of time.

 

So some simple suggestions that i have are:

1. Increase the mage hp per rank, so if their range is (7 to 10) increase it to (9 to 12).

2. Give them a version of blind fighting that works 50% to 75% of the actual blind fighting skill.

3. No mage should have only 1 defense, since the majority of them use 2 handed staffs at least give them the 2 handed skill.

 

None of these are game changers' but i think they will add some more competitiveness to the PK battles mage vs melee. I dont think

any melee classes would mind a few extra combat rounds and a closer fight, even being on the winning side of 1-2 round slaughterings

there is no real satisfaction because there was no real fight to brag about.

 

These additions would also help mages a low rank, thoughts?

 

UC

[Trick]

Read some PK logs of Sylf and tell me if he needs MORE HP OR a better defense. The issue is not the class. Its the user. I really don't think they need anything.

[f0xx]

 

These additions would also help mages a low rank, thoughts?

 

 

Here are my thoughts - your just pinned and wearing lvl 30 stuff character faced two VERY high ranked, very DECKED and very ahead in their cabals characters and you expected it to be a fair fight.

 

 

On a side note, the sole fact that you didn't die speaks that you did well.

[Unknown Criminal]

Read some PK logs of Sylf and tell me if he needs MORE HP OR a better defense. The issue is not the class. Its the user. I really don't think they need anything.

Didnt sylf have like 1200+ hp? Thats why you had good battles

[Unknown Criminal]

Here are my thoughts - your just pinned and wearing lvl 30 stuff character faced two VERY high ranked, very DECKED and very ahead in their cabals characters and you expected it to be a fair fight.

 

 

On a side note, the sole fact that you didn't die speaks that you did well.

Regardless of equipment lvl my ac was -400 and wielding a staff, getting blitzed in 1 round while being fully prepared for melee

attack is too fast. Its not like i fought a shaman with no mal saves and got malled up, its not like i fought an invoker with no aff saves

and got wrecked, ect. Im saying i was fully prepared with acceptable equipment and i couldnt get a shot off, thats a balance issue

that needs tweaking to make the PK more challenging and fun on both sides

UC

[Trick]

And you want to give them the ability to get more? Good call.

[Unknown Criminal]

And you want to give them the ability to get more? Good call.

 

So your saying every mage needs to be a fairy, knight leader and king in order to get enough hp to compete? Come on now

[Trick]

No, what I am saying is the problem is you. You are not as skilled as someone like crackwilly and are claiming its failure of the class that is the reason. No, the reason is he is a better PKer than you are. 

 

Devote some time to a character for a bit. You said you did 3 in the past week. Slow dow, learn the game again, and you'll be fine.

 

Its not the class. Its you.

 

The only class that is blatantly broken(skills don't work) and severely hampered is a bard.

[The Forsaken]

I don't think the solution lies with buffing mages. I think UC nailed it on the head as far as sanctuary is concerned. An extremely easy source of 8 plus hour group sanctuary is available with only 3 minutes of your time and 5000 gold. I think that is a bit powerful for melee, and pet hoarders in specific. I remember the days that you had to fight tooth and nail for a vial from the drow scouts, which meant sanctuary was actually a luxary, not a common factor.

[Trick]

I don't think the solution lies with buffing mages. I think UC nailed it on the head as far as sanctuary is concerned. An extremely easy source of 8 plus hour group sanctuary is available with only 3 minutes of your time and 5000 gold. I think that is a bit powerful for melee, and pet hoarders in specific. I remember the days that you had to fight tooth and nail for a vial from the drow scouts, which meant sanctuary was actually a luxary, not a common factor.

 

 

But you were PK viable in mithril from the golems at 50. People have god suits now and are actually SKILLED PKers. Everyone is on another level entirely. Not having sanctuary against Sylf? You'd die in two casts. 

[Unknown Criminal]

Trick you keep making my point for me.

First you used a mage yardstick of Sylf who was a cabal leader and a king on top of being a fairy invoker, he had over 1200 hp (and still on condeaths door)

so apparently they might need a little more then an hp boost.

The next point you brought up was people are in god suits now with access to unlimited 8-10 hour group sanctuary which is why mages need a

little tweak. My suggestions werent even to power mages but only to help them last a little longer.

My skill vs the best player in the game doesnt come into play if i cant get into the second round of combat with -400 ac, all spells up and

wielding a staff, that IS fully prepared to get into a melee fight with anyone.

And finally ive ranked 4 chars in the last few weeks of the same classes i rocked with, i know the game mechanics from a former mass pker perspective.

1 and 2 rounding fully prepared opponents (without vulns) shouldnt be able to be done

UC