Character Death Means Something To Some People

[dewaholic]

The problem I see isnt mages not having enough, its melees getting too much. You put a mage up against a melee both naked and using only skill/spells they get naturally and the mage is most likely going to win (assuming equal mid grade skill). This comes from a variety of factors but lies mostly in, mages have protections against melees in their skill sets. Melees dont get those protections.

 

Now you start introducing equipment and now melees have saves, weapon selections, consumables and all kinds of other things to make thieves drool. Once moderatly equiped, a melee can put up a better fight and either could come out on top. As far as consumables go, many of the advantages that mages get are also represented here. armor, shield, stoneskin, flesh armor, sanctuary, protections, fly, detect invis, cure serious/critical/heal, frenzy, giant strength, enlarge, teleport, enchant weapon, firestorm... all available without special restriction in large quantities. Add rare consumables or those granted by wands/scrolls/staves and you have a good chunk of the spells that mages can cast. So there goes many of the advantages that mages get.

 

Once cabals get involved advantages are even more defined. Specialized equipment is nice but the services are the kicker. Make all your equipment burnproof and invokers will have a harder time attritioning you. If a melee dies, all that stuff they are dependant on can be protected with life insurance making it so they can come right back for round two.

 

Does this mean mages cant win? Certanly not. Mages all have access to the same stuff. The stuff just tends to favor melees because there is significant equipment modification and enhancement and that clearly favors meless. It just means you have to figure out where to find the things you need and capatalize on mistakes they make. Fully manacharge that staff for invokers. Grab those great zombies for necros. Do... the battlemage thing. Life can be hard for a mage. But it can also be hard for the melee that cant get on his feet.

[f0xx]

I always find it funny how a player who used to be considered as elite, comes back, plays for a week at pinn, gets his ass kicked and starts telling us how broken the game is.

 

You fought two of the strongest characters with an uncaballed invoker who had just pinned. What did you actually expect to happen?

 

I (along with Mya) have been one of the people that's actually been rooting hard for mages to be buffed (you can check for yourself here and here ). I am ALL for making mages stronger. But the changes you suggested are plain and simple.. absurd.

 

Mages can already get more HP than melees (except ogres).

Mages can already get HUGE buffs to their defense abilities.

 

Right now the ENDGAME power of a melee is slightly bigger than that of mages. That is why myself and Mya have been so vocal and you see that IMMs acknowledge the problem and have introduced a new item specially to balance things out. Of course this alone will not do it, but it's a step in the right direction.

 

But that has nothing to do with the situation you complain about. I would actually be worried if your invoker IS able to stand toe to toe with ANY of the top tier characters.

[Volgathras]

New area incoming in the near future with gear mostly aimed towards mages. Just sayin'

[f0xx]

Rolling a mage. Waiting for UC to roll a melee and tell us how bad melees have it

[Naruthiron]

Sylf was strong before being Knight L, too. Just throwing that out there.

He EQ'd very well. He PK'd very well. Being almost condead doesn't mean anything negative about mages when you have his record/ratio. Success like his should not be viewed as an outlier, that is perhaps your biggest problem in this. It should be something you strive for. When you put it on a pedestal or make up excuses for why it worked out that way, you are not only being very disrespectful to the character and the player (effectively, you're saying that he was not strong of his own accord, but strong because of a position he obtained), but you are also inhibiting your own growth as a player and PKer.

 

When you play anything competitive, a good coach will always tell you one thing: You are to blame. That sounds hugely negative, but it is not. It's not a dig at you, or anyone else for that matter. It is the largest driving force to improvement, and a lack of understanding of this core concept will cripple your ability to constantly improve your craft. The moment you assign the blame to an outside factor, you are surrendering your control over the outcome. Anyone striving to be the best at what they do cannot afford to do that. There is always a fault in what you do. Always. And admitting that fallibility is the first step to success.

 

While it is a concept most widely associated with team games (not blaming your teammate for missing the 3-pointer that would have won the championship, and instead focus on how you could have gotten one or two more rebounds that you missed), it is very important to apply it to solo ventures as well. To get better, beyond a certain basic level that everyone can obtain through repetition and experimentation, you first have to acknowledge that you failed something. That's hard to do. But if you don't do it, you'll get yourself stuck. You'll always play at that same level, because of the "it's not my fault" mentality. 

Unfortunately, that is a difficult mentality to get rid of. I promise you, though, if you can manage to leave it behind, you will improve. And like I said before, this concept stretches far beyond this one instance. Apply it to life, and come this time next year, you'll be amazed at your growth as a person, as well as in your hobbies.

[Unknown Criminal]

Im not claiming to have all my PK skill ducks in a row, im not even saying I should have won any of the PK battles ive been in or stood a chance. I fully admit that I should lose vs anyone dressed better then me and that the top players here should, can and will mop the floor with me. Im not here to whine and complain that im not one of the big dogs anymore, I have no sense of entitelemt that goes further then I made a few new characters and I want to play this game with you people

 

That being said, all I brought up was that being dirtkicked and losing 400 hp in an opening round that I was fully prepared for doesnt seem right, a full blown newb could be behind the wheel of my opponent and the outcome would have been the same. My observations are from a non cabaled, non quest race, non quest class fighting in a PK mud that has always boasted balance. My personal opinion from an experienced player is that melee on melee is fine, mage on mage is fine but there is another level when it goes melee on mage.

 

If a mage was to do 600 damage in an opening round (half melee hp) and blinded them while that melee was sanced and had saves how fast would you bring it to peoples attention? This is exactly what happened but the other way around.

 

Yes if you put a naked mage and a naked melee class in the same room (lvl 50) the mage would destroy him, thats because a mages power is internal while a melee's strengths relies on the equipment he can gather. There comes a time with each new area that gets built (some new eq gets added thats slightly better then the rest), then another new area with slightly better eq, then another, then another and before you know it the new eq blows the original stuff right out of the water. Add in that melee classes also have access to just about every defensive or enhancement spell in a mages arsonal 'especially unlimited 8-10 hour group sanctuary'.

 

Now I really dont care if I ever get a pkill again or if I die trying, what I do care about is it being a competitive battle and may the better man/woman wins

 

But thats all I got on the subject, ive voiced my opinion, ive given multiple solutions that dont increase power and ive explained why I see things the way I do

 

UC

[f0xx]

This thread is getting funny.

 

If anyone would come back after 5-6 years of not playing, roll a character and be able to PK the characters that have been around for years, one hour after he hits pinnacle, then what kind of balance are we talking about? What kind of players do we have?

 

The stuff you are talking about have been around for YEARS. It's just that, noone bothered to use them in the past.

 

Everyone complains about the glimmering staff, but it takes a rare spot, and it's held by a mean mob. It's such a headache that I personally never bother with it.

 

IMO, you don't want balance. You just want to do well, which is perfectly fine. The irony here is, that you will never do well until you understand that you are the only one to blame for your misfortunes.

[Aulian]

Wow f0xx, harsh but true. 

 

I don't expect to compete at the top end of PK any more - my illusions of grandeur were shattered on my last pinn. I'm happy being mediocre and having fun to be fair. 

 

This game requires practice, experience will only take you so far. Also an invoker is like the mage version of a berserker. You have to be prepared to dish and take if you want to win - you have like 1 defence (or do they get dodge too?) but you also have the highest damage output per round in average of of any class with a fully charged staff. 

[H&R]

Aren't melees supposed to be slightly stronger than mages at end game though? Melees are more dependant on EQ and resources and usually easier to kill. Some mages have been impossible to kill in the past, while almost every melee will be killed by a bashing giant at some point.

 

I'm guessing you fought a fully prepared hasted ranger or dk as a neutral invoker? That has always been painful.

[The Forsaken]

Foxx at what point will you stop being an elitist dick? Aside the issues that UC has pointed out, which would keep most ALL brand new players away from the game, your attitude on the forums would keep the rest of them far from it.

[Erelei]

I'm inclined to believe UCs complaints as acts of needed change. Sure it's been that way for years - but if I had that attitude you'd never see any changes!

[Aulian]

Foxx at what point will you stop being an elitist dick? Aside the issues that UC has pointed out, which would keep most ALL brand new players away from the game, your attitude on the forums would keep the rest of them far from it.

 

 

He has a point. 

 

 

I have a HUGE issue with the level of consumables in the game at the  present moment. Healers are supposed to heal, clerics are supposed to heal - Warriors and the rest are not supposed to heal like they do, thats why they're a class. 

 

Solution: Give melee's a half timer on glimmering staffs? 

Solution: Give melee's a 50% fail rate on glimmering staffs?

 

Why not? They could start relying on Vials to put up their sanction instantly instead of just recasting the 8 hour terribly hard to dispel sanction... 

EDIT: If you time your rounds well, you can sheath, hold and recast using the staff without even leaving combat. I used to have an alias set up on Dumela to do it. 

 

Nymph hearts: There is nothing like them in the game  - all other healing items have a limited use; fleshworks, nimbus, red and white STAVES (limited application),  Tuo scrolls etc.

 

Solution: Make nymph hearts rare or cursed and uncursable so they have to inventory stack. Being able to carry a consumable with unlimited healing powers is madness. This game is supposed to be fun - nothing promotes RP like grinding consumables for 2 hours with quiet on. 

[f0xx]

Foxx at what point will you stop being an elitist dick?

 

How are my posts elitist at all?

 

I remember one of my more recent blademasters (Yllythyss) getting three rounded by your monk when he was inductee at watcher (there should be a log somewhere in the PK section). Should have I made a huge thread and ask for immediate changes?

 

I remember years ago when Aulian's Dumela was killing the squid for an invoker of mine, I would ask him "Hey, do you know who holds this item?" And he would be like "Yes, I know everything." Literally. This phrase stuck hard in my mind. I made it a point to know every item, where to get it from and how to get it. I rolled many characters with the sole purpose of learning to obtain the gear I want. And I still do. Is it elitist to say that you know everything when you actually do? If yes, then it was his elitism that made me want to improve. 

 

I still remember my fist character I took to pinnacle(ish). A level 47 invoker in Savant. I was in ecstasy from the damage hellstream did. I thought I could kill anything. And so one day, I saw some shaman fighting some cleric. I went to help the poor healer and started hellstreaming the shaman's ass. Over and over. Ganging at its purest form. The shaman's name was Shandemarin. And hour later, the healer was dead and I had died 3 times to him, with 300k XP hole. I tried to rank for weeks but every time he saw me online, he came and killed me. That is when I learned NEVER to interfere in people's fights. Then I started playing shamans, over and over. I wanted to be as strong as Shandemarin. At one point I became pretty good with them.

 

I still remember my shaman in Nexus, who learned from your character, Forsaken (Atsul), how to be truly evil. Or my other shaman in savant who learned from Hegemon's halfling gladiator blademaster the power of blademaster. I wanted to be as powerful. So I rolled a warmaster blademaster.

The rest is history.

The point of this post, as with many other posts, as with Naruto's post, is that if one keeps blaming some outside factors one will never improve. Not just in this game. Fuck this game. It is your life's logic. ALWAYS blame yourself. Even when it's not your fault. This way one will learn to do well even when odds are against him.

If not, you can be like Valek who keeps blaming EQ, or like Aulian who keeps blaming consumables (see, he didn't even miss this chance )

[Unknown Criminal]

This thread is getting funny.

 

If anyone would come back after 5-6 years of not playing, roll a character and be able to PK the characters that have been around for years, one hour after he hits pinnacle, then what kind of balance are we talking about? What kind of players do we have?

 

The stuff you are talking about have been around for YEARS. It's just that, noone bothered to use them in the past.

 

Everyone complains about the glimmering staff, but it takes a rare spot, and it's held by a mean mob. It's such a headache that I personally never bother with it.

 

IMO, you don't want balance. You just want to do well, which is perfectly fine. The irony here is, that you will never do well until you understand that you are the only one to blame for your misfortunes.

Wow, this really strikes a nerve with you eh?

Im such an unskilled and terrible player that when im fully prepared for a melee fight with -400 ac and (the best defensive weapon in the game) i shouldnt be able to last 1 round with anyone who is doing straight melee damage and been here longer then me. Imadgine the nerve of me, thinking i could step in to a PK battle and hope to make it out by round 3 wirh my skin still attached. Yup, the drugs i was smoking that night sure must have good

Whats funny is i do not expect to win any pk battles, im not even trying to win any but hell yes im trying to pick fights so that i can get some practice. Wanna know why ive power ranked 4 pins? I did it to learn the tick timing, damage output, new areas, im equiping an evil im equiping a neutral im equiping a good. You keep coming accross like im stepping off the platform fully untrained and naked looking to take over the world when im simply going the extra mile while your shining your sword obliviously

UC

[The Professor]

(I don't mean to derail this thread further, but I 'felt' I should add my two cents)

Foxx, you're extremely knowledgeable about the game and, without a doubt, a skilled player. I don't think anyone ever questions that when reading a comment or post by you. 

the 'problem' comes from how you go about replying to comments or trying to convey your message/insight... it usually reads as being intentionally rude/mean/condescending. this is something of which you must be aware... as anyone that replies with, "that's just stupid/absurd/ridiculous" or "your comments are laughable/you are crazy/you don't know what you're talking about." is going to be read as a personal affront. so, being aware that such comments might be read as being mean/rude then continuing to do so after it has been mentioned... would mean that you don't care that you're being offensive, that you're apathetic or are intentionally trying to insult members of this community (your community). 

(this doesn't apply to all of your posts, but even the (how are my posts elitist at all?) comment/post - which I found actually humanizing, and you explained your point of view without being directly negative... at least till the end... then there is that whole joke that's not a joke comment - we all express ourselves differently, but we should try to curb a bit of how we respond with tact) 

maybe I should have sent this in a personal message, but I've had some issues in the past with our own interactions. I meant, at some point, to message you and get to know you better. we all communicate differently, so we all have to find some sort of common ground to be able to communicate with one another without compromising ourselves too much. it's my opinion that you're perceived as an 'elitist' because of the tone of your responses. 
_________________________________________________________________

I think UC made himself clear that he only had an issue with taking 400 damage in a single round of combat considering he was spelled-up, decently equipped and ready to fight... I'm sure the rest of the player base knows this player better than I, as I've not really corresponded with many of you, but a lot of the people responding seem to read something in UC's posts that I'm just not seeing... the whole notion that this player 'thinks they're Elite and should be owning' I'm just not seeing in their posts... of course, a lot of their comments have been defensive, but that's understandable. 

for future reference, UC, log it and post on prayer... the Imms are great about listening to the players and they could/would look into it and do something about it... might save yourself a bit of a headache too. (at least Morlhach is already looking into it) 

[Mmm Coffee]

Read some PK logs of Sylf and tell me if he needs MORE HP OR a better defense. The issue is not the class. Its the user. I really don't think they need anything.

 

Sylf's PK prowess was definitely bolstered by the Vanguard.  You take that out of the picture and what UC is saying holds weight. 

 

On topic...

 

My only frustration has been from the change that allowed Barbarians to use glimmering staves.  That was very powerful.  You're giving a lvl 50 sanc to a melee sub-cabal capable of near-invoker-style damage.  As for other melees, in other cabals, I don't see a problem.  Sure there will be some fights that seem extremely one-sided...but then some times YOU will be the one on that side.  Some times you will need to use attrition skills and keep tabs on certain things with 'locate object.'

 

Eating/Smoking in battle - now THAT is something that has always bugged me.  Not that it can be done, but that it can be done with 0 lag penalty.  In my opinion, smoking an herb or eating a pill should be a 2-round lag.  Think about it, kicking dirt in reality takes two seconds...smoking something takes a LOT longer.

[Anume]

Some thoughts:

 

- please post LOGS of anything you deem imbalanced, makes it a lot easier for us to judge (please include score and eq)

- I somewhat agree on the healing consumables. I usually carry around a lot of them on my mortals but I seldom ever use them. One of the chars I absolutely stood no chance without using them was Sylf. Perhaps we should tone down the amount of healing any consumable does and see how this pans out.

- Life insurance: was recently changed -> change log

- Getting 2 - 3 rounded happens, but I agree it should not happen if you are fully prepared for the fight, so again, I'd like to see a log.

- foxx: we've had talks about how you come across to other people before, please try to be a little more tactful.

- mage eq / perks: we're on it. Rp necklace is in already. If you feel you have good ideas to items, post them on prayer. Some of them may show up in the next area. It's also astonishing that a very very top notch mage item we recently put in has not ever been used yet, as far as I am aware of. People need to experiment and explore more I guess.

[Unknown Criminal]

"-Getting 2 - 3 rounded happens, but I agree it should not happen if you are fully prepared for the fight"

Thats all im saying, I didnt think I had a chance to win or even expected to win for a second. My goal was to get my butt kicked

and open up an rp door of conversation with a very feared character. I did not however expect it to be a 1 round wash where

if I didnt flee I would  have probably died the next round.

 

I misplaced the log or forgot to save it, I got dirt kicked and took 400 damage through sanc and -400 ac while wielding a staff

in a straight up melee round.

 

If everyone needs a godsuit to get some PK balance thats fine, it just removes sooo much of the PK fun (for everyone) if people

log off and come back when nobody is on just to try and gain some better eq. Yes I agree that the better equipped char 'should win' a fight

barring a brain fart but I think there should actually be a fight and not just a one sided whooping on a prepared opponent

who just isnt on the same eq level. I know it might be an ego boost to do it but in all reality we are just playing a game

 

UC

[Mmm Coffee]

Unfortunately, in today's FL PK, that's the reality.  However, ON THE FLIP SIDE "!" nice rares (especially for mages due to relative low numbers) have been made much more available in the last year or so.  If you take the time to do the quests that reward HP and/or trains, it is not difficult at all for a mage to approach the 1200hp mark.  If you're willing to one-prac everything and sacrifice elsewhere (saves/AC) you can easily hit 1300-1400.  I don't recommend it, but it's certainly doable.

 

 

A few years back, I played a Savant Temporum illithid necro named Xylithix.  My #1 enemy was Grundor's Watcher Stalker Minotaur Warrior who would consistently hit me for charge lag + 3-400 damage.  Since the forum change, those PK logs are no longer available, but let me say 2 things:

 

1) He beat me more times than I beat him in terms of forcing me to flee or destroying my pets, or both.  But he only actually killed me twice IIRC.

2) When I beat him, it was COMPLETELY one-sided in my favor to the point he never had a chance.

 

So - what was the difference in the fights I won vs. lost?  Things going my way.  I had a plan and it worked.  When he beat me, I had a plan and it absolutely did NOT work.

 

My point is, if you fight someone once and get owned, that is only one fight.  However, given time and adjustment, you may find that ratio starts to tip in your favor.

[Ellwyn]

1) "Melee's are supposed to be stronger when they are fully geared since they are more gear dependent..."

- Disagree with this statement. The GOAL should be that they are equally balanced when both are geared for end game, as idealistic as that sounds.

 

2) Keep in mind, not all mages are created equal:

- Afflictive mages operate differently than lets say maledictive mages. Sure a melee can load an invoker with 4-8 blows since they have one defense.... But the invoker also has afflictive spells that can dish out similar damage that also cannot be blocked. Vanguard or certain combos aside, things may be more balanced in this case.

- What's not balanced is when a maledictive/mental mage struggles to land a single spell and gets half their hp chunked away with ease in the two rounds of lag due to the equipment available to the melee (has both good saves AND good damage).

 

3) Consumables. I would argue that it does require some tweaking for the following reasons:

- A melee should not have easy/consistent access to MANY of the most important utility spells a mage has.

- Cure, slow, bless, armor, stone skin, frenzy... the list goes on and on and on. All those protective spells a mage has? A melee can have them all too with practically no negative impact at all save a little effort collecting. In fact, they dont have to waste mana whereas mages do.

 

Main Points:

- No single character should be able to have it all and do everything. The reason I think melees are having an edge is, when properly prepped, they can have many of the perks of being a mage while still keeping the benefits of being a melee.

- Gear in general tends to benefit melees more than mages. Hit/dam and saves scale better for melees and makes them much more formidable once they get to break points of power than if mages had that same gear. 

- Loving the idea for mage focused gear by the imms. It might address what I just said above.

 

[mya]

400 hp on a single round where the opener is a dirt kick on a Invoker?

 

What class were you fighting? A ranger or a Necro.

Did you put firestorm up»?