Sleepy Arrows Discussion

[Unknown Criminal]

I recently fought a ranger with a very effective strategy that I think might need some discussion.

 

Ninja: Strangle.

Ninja must put himself in harms way, (Risk of combat starting on fail).

2 defenses.

No blind fighting.

Victim receives timer to prevent consecutive unconscious states.

 

Thief: Blackjack.

Thief must put himself in harms way, (Risk of combat starting on fail).

2 defenses.

No blind fighting.

Victim receives timer to prevent consecutive unconscious states.

 

Necro: Sleep.

Necro must put himself in harms way, (Risk of combat starting on fail).

1 defense.

No blind fighting.

Mage limited hp, failing the first sleep can cause full retreat mode.

 

Ranger: Sleepy Arrows

Ranger shoots from multiple rooms away, (No risk)

3 defenses.

Blind fighting.

No limit to sleepy arrows, unlimited sleep attempts with no risk.

 

 

The battle I was in I got slept for 2-3 hours then dirt kicked, I fled and got slept again. When the dirt rubbed out of my eyes I was

dirt kicked again, I fled and got slept again. Rinse and repeat 5-6 times, I was dirt blind and unconscious for 5-6 hours before I was able to get away,

lucky for me I had a fresh sanc on and his attack power wasnt that of someone who was fully decked out.

 

I like the sleepy arrows and the attack strategy, what I dont like is that there is no timer to prevent consecutive unconscious states creating a one

sided battle.

 

Anyone else think there should be a timer especially since its a no risk sleep attack from other rooms?

 

UC

[Trick]

If you are who I think you are, stop by Ghregory in Miruvhor and buy some missile shield scrolls. 

[Volgathras]

In my opinion, if you have to rely on a consumable to compete that's a balance issue, but that's me personally.

[Trick]

Sanctuary is a consumable that is a requirement to have. Balance issue?

[Unknown Criminal]

If you are who I think you are, stop by Ghregory in Miruvhor and buy some missile shield scrolls. 

 

I know about Ghregory, but he wont sell if your wanted which shuts that down. Next option is to

stock up on poison drinks but like Volgathras said its relying on a consumable to compete.

 

Using things like poison drinks to deter and nullify a blackjack/strangle is one thing but those are

timed sneak attacks that cant be used back to back to back like the arrows. If I didnt know the area I was in

I would have died barring a recall and him not reaching my temple before that year long lag wears off, fleeing

for the fifth time and then hearing the green square trainer talk is a godsend if you know what I mean 

 

UC

[Trick]

Then you now know you need to stock up on that item if you're going to fight that particular person. Or use brews. Blackjack/strangle have timers, but brews don't wear off instantly anyways so you're going to end up poisoned for the whole encounter anyways. 

[Unknown Criminal]

Then you now know you need to stock up on that item if you're going to fight that particular person. Or use brews. Blackjack/strangle have timers, but brews don't wear off instantly anyways so you're going to end up poisoned for the whole encounter anyways. 

 

Dont you think having to inflict yourself with a malediction for an entire battle OR session to avoid a consistent barrage of out of room sleep attacks is a little much? With thieves and ninjas they can only hit it every 3 hours so you have some time to scramble, battle, recuperate. With a necro if he fails once he might have to scramble, battle and recuperate himself.  With a ranger its a consistent attack they can implore with no scramble, battle or recuperation needed for every fail.

 

UC 

[Trick]

But you're given many ways to defend against it. A thief/ninja can just hide and wait until they can again. A necromancer can flee and reset. If you put a timer on it, you're just going to have a ranger camo and wait. Sleepy arrows have been defended against easily LONG before you brought this up, man. Arrows used to be a lot worse. They USED to lag you every time you were shot with one. Then, they were unstoppable. NOW you have so many ways to defend against them.

 

Any class with scrolls gets: Missile shield scrolls.

Each berserker path has a way to deal with arrows.

Warriors have a lore that can not only stop, but return the arrow back to the shooter.

Blademasters can deflect them.

 

So really, the only class that CAN'T defend is a ranger themselves.. 

 

Then I want a stackable consumable that say.. always prevents assassination. Or a stackable herb that let's me protect all my items from being stolen because its not fair that a thief can rob me blind and run away or a ninja can assassinate me without me know they are there.

[Unknown Criminal]

Here is the balance issue in a nutshell:

 

Not every class forces you to stack a consumable in order to compete with it.

 

I like the arrows, I like the strategy but it should only be an opener in my opinion, not a consistent opener for every engagement.

 

Make sense?

 

UC

[Trick]

By that logic, I shouldn't have to stack vials, black leaves, or glimmering staves to compete with classes that can..

 

I shouldn't have to stack red potions/gyvels to deal with a shaman's/necro blind..

 

I shouldn't have to use potions of flight, scrolls, or dragon kin orbs against classes that can trip...

 

I shouldn't have to use venom sacks against classes that can bash...

 

 

 

Make sense?

[Unknown Criminal]

Thats going a little too far, gameplay, balance and fun need to play a part.

 

Picture a ninja strangling you with no risk of attack on fail and infinity repeatable.

 

The sleepy arrows 'as is' a ranger can stand beside you, wait till you wake up and sleep you. Then if you manage to flee

sleep you again from 1 room back, then if you manage to flee again sleep you from 2 rooms back, if you manage to attack them they have

enough defenses and pets to ward off major harm and sleep you again. If you dont 'know' the area you are

in and have to look at the room directions you are already asleep, that is not fair to non experienced players. Being caught in a dirt

kick/flee/sleep attack cycle is not fair to anyone and it takes real skill and game knowledge  to get out of it. The only reason

I got away from that battle after 5-6 sleeps was because I landed at the trainer and could figure out my whereabouts from

years of running that path, sure I could have recalled but what if I was a melee class?

 

But like i said, I like the strategy but you shouldt be able to repeat it until victim death, might as well let cleave hit and have a chance

to sleep on every engagement, oh wait, that was changed too have a timer too

 

UC

[Trick]

See, you say all of this, but completely ignore the fact that you have a tool at your disposal... Those scrolls literally STOP all of that.. I've realize that arguing on the forums rarely ends in anything constructive as neither party are willing to give up their position regardless of the information provided. I can tell you that this probably will not be changed. Why? Because its such an easily solved problem, but you want to argue it anyways.

 

 

The answer is already in the game. 

[f0xx]

 

But like i said, I like the strategy but you shouldn't be able to repeat it until victim death.

 

And he is not.

 

If you are prepared. Even if you are not, sleeping arrows are not as effective as you make them out.

[Grimulfr]

Theives, ninjas and necromancers can also do a lot to you when they knock you out. Rangers can't do much without waking you up other than stand there.

 

Also, I think the ranger arrow sleep is a lot shorter, only about 1 or even 0 hours.

 

Granted, I do find it an annoying tactic, though.

[Unknown Criminal]

Remember, this is just a discussion to get everyones points and info out in the open

Having to farm 1 item to prevent an attack from 1 specific class that has and unlimited supply of that attack is a little much, especially

when you compare that attack to the other classes who have something simular and been gimped to prevent abuse, (aka timers).

Putting someone to sleep is a HUGH advantage, not to mention that it can be done from other rooms (behind cabal guards, yes it was done the

other day) at no risk. All im saying is i think there should be a 3 hour timer so it cant be consecutively used while still being an incredibky powerful opener,

thats all

IC

[Trick]

The biggest advantage that sleepy arrows gives is the chance to get away or maybe kill a charmie. Other than that, the ranger doesn't have any skill that can be utilized without waking his opponent. You label it as a huge advantage, I label it as an escape tactic. One that can be easily avoided by an item that isn't farmed at all, but bought. Meaning you can buy that scroll that will last several hours. That's not farming. It's buying a way out. Easy. Simple. Fixed. Done.

 

You're saying it's a little much.. But let's look at what you said.. You said there is ONE solution to ONE problem... That means there IS a fix to the problem that you've identified that has been implemented, but you want something else to be done about it. That doesn't make sense. Problem.. Solution.. That's how things work.

 

 

I fully believe you are making far too big of an issue of this single tactic whereas there are other tactics that I find far more abusive. 

[The Professor]

I've never much liked the concept of a Sleep Arrow... lol flaming, piercing, etc... makes all kinds of sense to me. the whole, "I shot you in the chest with my ARROW OF SLEEP!" always gets a giggle. (conceptually speaking, of course)

I would be inclined to say, "If they're not really effective, then it shouldn't really matter if they're removed." but that's just my take on it. I didn't really use sleep arrows as a ranger, finding all of my opponents were immune to 'missiles' really put a damper on the Archer path, but when I was lucky to catch my opponent without the immunity... I enjoyed using some of the vuln effects.  

can't really talk about something dealing with 'sleeping' your opponent without getting aggravated by the ever so useful cheese tactic of self poisoning! I digress... 

I'm sure you peeps will provide all the pros and cons for Sleep Arrows. I'll be sure to read them.

[f0xx]

Shooting behind guards is something completely different and I agree with your point on that one.

 

Everything else however, is perfectly fine and balanced.

 

There is actually not one, but two ways to defend against the sleep effect of the sleeping arrows. Both can be bought en mass.

[Magick]

Yes I know that most of these have already been stated, but I see the argument is going in a decidedly circular direction at the moment and I thought to boil it down in one post.

 

 

 

There are multiple ways to nullify ranged combat.  Item abilities not withstanding, doors are your friends.  If memory serves, corners are too.  So hurray!  We've got ways to avoid a skill!  Most involve being nowhere close to the aggressor!  Like all other skills!  /sarcasm

 

Sleep arrows are can obviously put you to sleep, but if the Archer is spamming, it's entirely possible they'll wake up their target with the next arrow.  There's also little they can do to you while you're asleep that won't wake you up.

 

Skills like charge, blackjack and cleave have timers to prevent repeated use over a short time.  Sleep arrows don't.  To counter this (and other ammo), the staff put in an item that minimizes exposure.  Missile Immunity scrolls don't grant 100% immunity as is seemingly implied in this thread; it's closer to a 75% chance of not being hit.  A great addition except for that (to my knowledge) there's only the ONE place in the entire land that you can purchase them, and you can't even do that if you're wanted.  (There's another item that grants this too, but it's cabal specific.)

 

That aside, I propose is a second vendor outside of Tribunal controlled areas.  Or a mob with a wand/scroll of missile shield on him.  Perhaps with a shorter duration keeping Ghregory as the uber place to go.

[English lad]

Rather than going around in circles - with everybody defending 'their' corner - lets try being a bit more positive / pro-active and looking at it from the angle of a solution - rather than a problem.

 

Forget consumables - forget 'options open to you' for a second.

 

UC's issue would be solved by Arrow sleep also placing a secondary status affect - which is 1 tic longer than the sleep - that means you aren't affected by the sleep serum - have it give a message that suggests you feel drowsy - but the serum fails to take hold.

 

From my perspective this would seem to be the simplest solution.

 

Can people who are opposed to this explain why it would be a bad idea - and the specific problems it would cause.  Please no rehash of "but dude just poison lol111!!!".  Just responses to the actual suggestion.

[Magick]

It would be a surprisingly simple solution, yes.  On the surface.

 

Assuming they're sleeping the duration.  How would this affect those woken before the duration expires?
 
If you've got:

Spell: sleep   : 2 hours               : 3 hours

Then would you have it keep the 3+0 hours in this example or reduce it to a 0-hour tick?  If the former, then adding the cooldown of this duration was already suggested by UC.  It would also make the aforementioned missile shield even more powerful than it is and would itself need correcting*, perhaps making it a 50/50 rather than a 75% fail (yes, I bring the spell up as it's inexorably linked to the skill).  If the latter, then I don't think there would be too large of a balance shift.  A middle ground, as it were.  Other opinions would be interesting to hear.  It would force the Archer to rotate arrows a little more frequently, if nothing else.

 

While we're talking about sleep arrows at the moment, would we apply it to poison and plague arrows, too?  If so, then the asterisked observation certainly applies.  If not, why?  What makes sleep more special than poison/plague?  You're shot by a poison arrow, you run to the healer to get it cured, you do and are lagged, Archer stands out side and poisons you again.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  If anything, catching a few (forced) hours of sleep helps you out at the potential cost of watching your buffs tick away, your pets scattered/killed and being annoying as hell.

[Unknown Criminal]

Using the tactic as an open is deadly as it is, as was stated:

Your spells tick off and your pets are killed, this is what the scroll should protect you from (the initial barrage), this puts emphasis on being prepared or being caught with your pants down.

Being able to continuously sleep someone from distance with no fear and then dirtblind locking them until 'word of recall' or a talking mob gives you your bearings back is a little much in my opinion. I actually think putting the 3 hour timer on it would make the attack stronger because your opponent will be more likely to stay and fight but then get caught mid battle which is when sanc and flight are more likely to drop.

That would make the PK battle more fun on both sides, but thats all I got to say on the subject.

UC

[f0xx]

Someone please assassinate one of UC's characters so we can get a discussion on that skill

[Magick]

There's nothing wrong with a fresh perspective.

[Aulian]

Ranger arrows are fully fine. 

 

If someone is using that tactic on you - they aren't winning the fight. Like you said you got away. 

 

I only used sleep arrows to set up an ambush attack. 

 

With Vulns, magic arrows, plague and poison there are a lot of better options. In fact, you're lucky you survived if you were being effected that easily...