svs- Breath

[Fool_Hardy]

Since I am uncertain on this, I will state that I may be wrong.

There were spells that saved vs breath. < On the source code, belonging to classes that do not

exist in Aabahran any longer. Although I have seen immortals cast these spells over the years.

I truly believe I can think of a couple of spells on existing classes(not bards) that save vs breath.

New things take balancing folks we have been through it before, let us hope and pray that we can

remain constructive in our posts that other classes get a tune up, instead of bards ending up toned

down.

No pun intended.

[Naruthiron]

Atticus, absolutely NOTHING has changed except now you can SEE the svs breath stat. It has always been there. It has always been checked against. It has always received a bonus from svs spell. We have not implemented anything new without a way to protect against it. 

 

Now that the use for svs breath has become more prevalent, expect to see new equipment with that stat, and perhaps some old equipment revamped to provide that stat. 

 

There is a lot of fuss being made over what is essentially nothing. Everyone please take a handful or two of chill pills.

[Atticus]

Lol Roger that. Time to identify

[f0xx]

My only worry with the sv-breath saving against bard songs is just that it doesn't sound logically correct.

 

If you follow the save versus logic, it's pretty much self explanatory.

 

Affliction saves you against spells that damage you.

Malediction saves you against spells that are detrimental to you.

Mental saves you against spells that affect your mind.

 

And breath saves you against..... bard songs. Where's the logic in that?

[Magick]

My only worry with the sv-breath saving against bard songs is just that it doesn't sound logically correct.

 

If you follow the save versus logic, it's pretty much self explanatory.

 

Affliction saves you against spells that damage you.

Malediction saves you against spells that are detrimental to you.

Mental saves you against spells that affect your mind.

 

And breath saves you against..... bard songs. Where's the logic in that?

 

 

 

Would you rather it just be renamed to save vs sound?

[f0xx]

Would you rather it just be renamed to save vs sound?

 

To me personally, yes.

 

But then that particular save is also used to save vs dragon breath?

 

Generally, I don't have enough info to give opinions, but it just seems weird to use save vs breath to save vs songs...

 

*shrug*

[Volgathras]

We're all aware of the dangers of taking things too literally in a fantasy game, but if we wanted to be more accurate, bard songs have only a little to do with sound - about as much as mages and vocal spellcasting.

 

Bardic lore (which I will update some day, I'm sure) describes the bardic ability to tap in to a primal form of magic that speaks to the spirit, through musical tones and melodies. By manipulating these ancient magic they are able to inspire emotion or even shift reality. So 'magic' damage would be it's absolute base. Still, sound and even breath are aspects of that.

[Erelei]

Funnily, DAM_SOUND (which all bards songs use as damage, minus two or three) was magical. 

 

I had to change it because invokers could literally wtfstomp bards if they wanted to, with mana shield up.

[f0xx]

 

I had to change it because invokers could literally wtfstomp bards if they wanted to, with mana shield up.

 

I understand now your reasoning.

 

On the other hand though, mana shield stops malforms and damage spells of the other hybrid classes. Bards have the means to obtain some pretty high hit/dam AND fired weapons, and on top of that, I've noticed that a certain damage song uses physical damage as a base (might be wrong here) plus their weapons seem to be physical too, those same weapons which invokers don't know and are the highest damage weapons that exist not counting living weapons.

 

So bard songs being able to avoid mana shield, while DKN and sader weapons don't, seems a bit too big of a perk to me.

 

Just my opinion of course.

[Erelei]

DKs are the only problem here - Crusader weapons can change dam_nouns with a psalm or modify a different base weapon.

 

However, DKs get energy drain, and silence, and a plethora of other spells that the invoker cannot block.

 

The effects are still akin to saves (as the above are) with bard songs, but the damage is no longer magical by nature - it passes a physical test instead. Yay for giants with physical resist, fyi.

[mya]

"Still, sound and even breath are aspects of that."

Right, you breath sound out of your mouth when you sing, so in a strange way, singing is a breath attack by sound.

[Atticus]

So wait, bards get their own svs? Baaah

[Erelei]

BAHHHHHHH.

 

BARDS ARE SO OVERPOWERED NOW.

 

WE ALL SHOULD ROLL ONE.

 

[Dale]

Priceless.

 

 

+1 Morlhach.

[Atticus]

Well when you can see avg 32 dam weapon modified for mental dmg.... on top of the fact now one class has their own svs? Guess it's the bardic revenge

[The Forsaken]

Average 32 with a wide Doce roll. Very wide. I've hit maim and mangle in the same round. But they were sanced with -650 AC so it's understandable.

[Trick]

You got a mangle through sanctuary and -650 ac...?

[Atticus]

Yea, Im just saying

[Naruthiron]

Correct me if I am wrong, Morl.

Bards have always used their own saves. What has changed is that now they use them for more things. 
 

The only change is that the save is now included in your score sheet.

[The Forsaken]

You got a mangle through sanctuary and -650 ac...?

 

Nope. Just doing my part for April Fools Day.

 

I think I have a total of 3(4?) pks on my bard, where I think I have the same amount of deaths. I really don't see what's so scary about them.

[Volgathras]

People haven't learned them yet, which makes balancing goofy because, once people understand their change in mechanics, we'll probably have to look at it all over again.

[f0xx]

Right, you breath sound out of your mouth when you sing, so in a strange way, singing is a breath attack by sound.

Ah, that does make some sense now that I think about it

 

Average 32 with a wide Doce roll. Very wide.

Not true. It's the same dice roll as the soul forge and a tighter dice roll than the nexus weapon, the hell's fury, and the monorod (while the same max roll).

 

Priceless.

 

+1 Morlhach.

You know Dale, considering you were one of the most vocal people who were screaming how OP bards are.... +1-ing Morle when he makes fun of those exact people is a bit funny

That being said, one has to admit bards do have some pretty nice perks going on for them:

1) They can make their own highly buffed weapons that are a type no other class in the game knows.

2) Their damage spells bypass mana shield.

3) They have saves of their own, which means it's much more likely people to ignore those saves (might as well call them "save vs bard").

4) They have some pretty neat buffs of their own that stack with certain other buffs.

5) They have steal.

On the other hand they have a bane, the same bane that every hybrid class has - giant bashers. Funnily enough, some of their songs are physical, which means they are extra weak against their banes, and extra strong against the classes they have an easy time.

This is again just my opinion:

-bard songs should be separated in one of the three already existing save categories and damage songs should naturally fall into the AFF category (reverbate (sp?) should perhaps stay physical, but the big damage ones - piercing note - should definitely be AFF in nature).

-bard weapons should be magical by nature, damage type changeable to physical via modification.

-they should definitely lose steal

That's my 2 cents.

But then again, Volg is right that bards are still new.

[The Forsaken]

That being said, one has to admit bards do have some pretty nice perks going on for them:

1) They can make their own highly buffed weapons that are a type no other class in the game knows.

Not going to argue that they are strong weapons. But I could also say a nexus reaver warrior does the same thing(1 less av damage), and can use any type of weapon that their opponent doesn't know. (Other than vs another warrior.) An easier argument is that the materials to make those weapons are too easy to obtain.

2) Their damage spells bypass mana shield.

So do a few other spells in the game. What's one more?

3) They have saves of their own, which means it's much more likely people to ignore those saves (might as well call them "save vs bard").

Read any number of the posts above. This argument is moot by this point.

4) They have some pretty neat buffs of their own that stack with certain other buffs.

Really? I'd love to hear which. Bard Bless doesn't stack with regular bless. Bard Frenzy doesn't stack with regular frenzy. So that leaves the -AC and +luck song? That stacks with...stoneskin I guess?

5) They have steal.

They don't have hide. Steal without hide is a deathwish.

On the other hand they have a bane, the same bane that every hybrid class has - giant bashers. Funnily enough, some of their songs are physical, which means they are extra weak against their banes, and extra strong against the classes they have an easy time.

This is again just my opinion:

-bard songs should be separated in one of the three already existing save categories and damage songs should naturally fall into the AFF category (reverbate (sp?) should perhaps stay physical, but the big damage ones - piercing note - should definitely be AFF in nature).

Piercing note got nerfed hard. Hard hard. Which it needed a slight adjustment, but most likely not as much as it got. As in I've had other bard vogues outdamage my note.

-bard weapons should be magical by nature, damage type changeable to physical via modification.

Some are already magical, some are physical depending on what they are made out of.

-they should definitely lose steal

Again...if you get stolen from by a class that can not hide...just kill them and take it back. It's not like they can camo and never be seen again.

How many of you have actually been killed by a bard? I'm guessing that Foxx hasn't, but I will guess that he got stolen from by one.

[Hegemony]

reserved

[f0xx]

That being said, one has to admit bards do have some pretty nice perks going on for them:

1) They can make their own highly buffed weapons that are a type no other class in the game knows.

Not going to argue that they are strong weapons. But I could also say a nexus reaver warrior does the same thing(1 less av damage), and can use any type of weapon that their opponent doesn't know.

That's a pretty manipulative writing there. The nexus weapon can be only 1 type. Some classes know it, others don't. Also, what are you doing there? Comparing bards to warriors and saying it's fine? Weapon selection is one of the biggest advantages of warriors. That's like giving warriors the ability to raise zombies and saying it's fine because Necros can do it. Or ice storm, and saying it's fine because invokers can do it. Strange logic.

 

2) Their damage spells bypass mana shield.

So do a few other spells in the game. What's one more?

Ince again that necro-warrior strange logic.

So now we not only have a warrior-like class that uses weapons unknown to any other class, but that class can also use heavy invoker like damage spells.

 

3) They have saves of their own, which means it's much more likely people to ignore those saves (might as well call them "save vs bard").

Read any number of the posts above. This argument is moot by this point.

No, your "warriors get this so it's fine" argument does not nullify my arguments. I don't think your arguments above have proved anything at all actually. So now we not only have warrior-like class using weapons no other class knows casting high-damage spells, but those spells also have their own save which works only against this class? Still fine with it?

 

4) They have some pretty neat buffs of their own that stack with certain other buffs.

Really? I'd love to hear which. Bard Bless doesn't stack with regular bless. Bard Frenzy doesn't stack with regular frenzy. So that leaves the -AC and +luck song? That stacks with...stoneskin I guess?

Last I checked bless did stack with their warcry song. Not sure about frenzy, but I think that stacked too.

 

5) They have steal.

They don't have hide. Steal without hide is a deathwish.

That's a pretty absurd thing to say at all. You know it very well, because your own bard has stolen from some very heavy lagger chars without dying to them.

 

-bard songs should be separated in one of the three already existing save categories and damage songs should naturally fall into the AFF category (reverbate (sp?) should perhaps stay physical, but the big damage ones - piercing note - should definitely be AFF in nature).

Piercing note got nerfed hard. Hard hard. Which it needed a slight adjustment, but most likely not as much as it got. As in I've had other bard vogues outdamage my note.

I haven't seen the nerfed version of piercing note, but I will probably agree with you here. It's a long standing FL tradition to have something outrageously strong implemented and then nerf it way over the top (feign comes to mind).

 

-they should definitely lose steal

Again...if you get stolen from by a class that can not hide...just kill them and take it back. It's not like they can camo and never be seen again.

"just kill them" is not an argument. Just like "just log out" is not an argument against assassinate.

 

How many of you have actually been killed by a bard? I'm guessing that Foxx hasn't, but I will guess that he got stolen from by one.

You are most likely correct on your first point, and correct indeed on the second one.

And that doesn't prove anything at all. Most of the bard characters that run around at this point are test characters, rolled for the sole purpose of learning the class.

PS. Please don't pick my post apart and reply to snippets of it. Classes are not mono-dimensional single abilities. They are a package. You can't say "this skill is fine" cause warriors/invokers already do that. They are not warriors nor invokers. They are bards, with a completely different setup and a completely different lore.