Paralysis

[mya]

Can you please enlighten me as to why do we HAVE to do that?

 

Because you conveniently ignore the fact that mages damage output comes from spells. If spells take double to recover, damage output is halved.

 

"As someone said, by the time it takes a melee to dirt you, you can dish out 4 call lightnings, which is half his HP."

And in those 2 rounds I have lost 400 HP which is half my HP ...

But lets see how much damage those call Lightnings do on an experienced player like Grazath.

http://theforsakenlands.com/community/index.php?/topic/34152-sylf-knight-l-vs-grezath-syndicate/

Lacerates....

[Aulian]

All depends on who is playing the mages. I myself can say that paralyze isn't that big an issue. Learn to flee from it if it is.

 

Concise and well said - +1

 

 

Because you conveniently ignore the fact that mages damage output comes from spells. If spells take double to recover, damage output is halved.

 

"As someone said, by the time it takes a melee to dirt you, you can dish out 4 call lightnings, which is half his HP."

And in those 2 rounds I have lost 400 HP which is half my HP ...

But lets see how much damage those call Lightnings do on an experienced player like Grazath.

http://theforsakenlands.com/community/index.php?/topic/34152-sylf-knight-l-vs-grezath-syndicate/

Lacerates....

 

If only invokers were given other spells. Like a real class. That would help.

 

Maybe spells which could really damage an undead. Like stream from hell or something.... That could work.

 

Of if that didnt work... Like. This big ass storm... Where it snows heaps.... And boom. 

[f0xx]

All depends on who is playing the mages. I myself can say that paralyze isn't that big an issue. Learn to flee from it if it is.

Isn't that the case with anything?

[Dale]

I'm not saying Paralyze is to strong.

I'm saying it's biased.

Mages can't really use it, due to weapon choice.

 

 

 

In that same area as the whip is an exotic with the same effect.

[mya]

Concise and well said - +1

 

 

 

If only invokers were given other spells. Like a real class. That would help.

 

Maybe spells which could really damage an undead. Like stream from hell or something.... That could work.

 

Of if that didnt work... Like. This big ass storm... Where it snows heaps.... And boom. 

 

Why are you arguing invoker spells? Posted the log to show F0xx that his claim of half HP in 4 call lightnings is not exactly has he says.

 

"All depends on who is playing the mages. I myself can say that paralyze isn't that big an issue. Learn to flee from it if it is."

Good, I was waiting for you guys to agree with this. So we can agree that a mage response to Paralyze is to flee and wait it out, as it's foolish to try to power it through.

 

Now how many times your warriors fled the moment they became paralyzed? And how many times did you just kept engaged, because you can still outdamge him through your meele.

Think well, there is a hook on this.

[f0xx]

Mya, you are comparing oranges to apples.

"Warriors do this, but invokers can't! Fix plz."

This is not how balance works.

I'll leave that here.

[Unknown Criminal]

What I hear Mya saying is:

An invoker that's paralyzed can cast a single one round lag spell per round with a full charged staff.

A warrior that's paralyzed can still dish out 8 attacks while dual wielding.

That's both extremes, the Mage that casts the most vs the Melee that swings the most both paralyzed.

Paralyze IS biased vs the class and anyone that disagrees is a blithering idiot. (No fingers pointed)

To balance it out I posted earlier what it should do to a Melee victim by additionally hindering 3rd attack, 4th attack and dual wield,

you won't find a Melee player who agrees with that because it 'almost' evens the effect bias by putting them on the same level

of damage output. If this was to happen the forum would be littered with complaints about how strong it is, hinder a Melee's damage output

like it does a Mage would be unheard of

I also suggest it to be -mal saveable, from my knowledge it isn't.

As for a specific undead damage spell I think those should stay limited to good clerics, Paladins and healers, if added to a weapon effect that

weapon should be 'good only'. Then flip the script and give evil clerics, dark knights and shaman an equal type spell to use vs avatars.

UC

[Imoutgoodbye]

Paralyze may have inequities against certain classes, races, or abilities (extrapolate that all day), but only people have biases.  The intent of the author of the paralysis code will most likely remain a mystery therefore no one can draw a conclusion as to whether or not it is biased.  Also, the skill having been born of a previous age could not take into account all variables now contained within the game.  It would be more accurate to say there may be mistakes with it, but that's only from a PK perspective.  From the perspective of RP, the race should continue to gain all benefits as there is a risk/reward associated with that race being part of the, oh, let's call it Red tier because I don't like describing it as anything other than a color for now.  There's more to balance than just class vs. class.  

 

Also, there is a way in the RP Edges to obtain certain weapon imbuing attacks against the likes of the damned or virtuous.  Which is definitely awesome in my book.

 

Anyways, I'm enjoying the conversation so far, minus the slight word issue.  

[The Forsaken]

Nevermind

[f0xx]

 

you won't find a Melee player who agrees with that because it 'almost' evens the effect bias by putting them on the same level

of damage output.

 

So, I thought we already agreed that invokers have the highest damage output (hence why they require manual input for it).

 

So when you lower their damage input via paralysis, it evens out with melee's.

[The Forsaken]

I don't think that an paralyzed invoker damage output is on par with a melees. Even if it was, any melee should typically have more hp than an invoker, still giving it an edge.

I am in no way advocating a change with paralyze. Just arguing with foxx because it's fun.

[Fool_Hardy]

What a read.

Rev +1 think outside the box.

Aulian +1 be prepared to win, or be prepared to run. Don't know if you remember teaching me that.

I love you guys.

[Unknown Criminal]

Where both classes have the second attack skill an invoker will have hp boost over hit/dam boost as per the Melee, so even if the Melee class maintains a second attack skill it's going to be stronger then the invokers because that's their strength.

I don't care about a change because it doesn't effect me or any of my chars, my mages suck vs this skill while my Melee's are unscathed as usual, I'd never fight an undead necro with a Melee class anyways

What the imms need to watch for is 'do people log off and stop playing when x race/class/combo is on', if this happens they will need to take a look at why x class makes people stop playing and fix it. If it's just a matter of skill over eq and combos then that's the way it is, but if it's a combonation of 'how things are with eq knowledge' then it might need a looking into.

UC

[f0xx]

That part about the paralyzed invoker damage being on par with melee was a joke, of course.

 

The funny thing here is, what causes this discussion is Grezath, mostly. Who is playing a combo that noone, in FL's 15 years of history has ever been successful with and while most people have considered this very combo a fodder for healers/paladins and what not.

 

Even as it is, 99% of the PB would not be able to play this combo as well as Grezath does, and would not be able to come through 10% of the things he has managed.

 

It's funny, everyone wants to be strong, noone wants to put in the effort. And when someone does put in the effort, it's the game to blame. As usual.

 

...my mages suck vs this skill while my Melee's are unscathed as usual. I'd never fight an undead necro with a Melee class anyways.

How do you manage to contradict yourself so well sometimes is beyond me.

[Aulian]

What a read.

Rev +1 think outside the box.

Aulian +1 be prepared to win, or be prepared to run. Don't know if you remember teaching me that.

I love you guys.

 

I don't... But the fact that someone actually listened to something I said should be noted. Thanks lol

[Aulian]

What the imms need to watch for is 'do people log off and stop playing when x race/class/combo is on', if this happens they will need to take a look at why x class makes people stop playing and fix it. If it's just a matter of skill over eq and combos then that's the way it is, but if it's a combonation of 'how things are with eq knowledge' then it might need a looking into.

UC

 

A lot of this comes down to player skill.. I'll stand toe to toe with any ogre warrior. Throw Thulgan in front of me and I will think twice before rushing towards my own death.

 

The list goes on and on. 

[Fool_Hardy]

fact: players log off NOT because they fear death but rather because they fear loss of EQ

fiction: all invokers will log off because this race/class combo is on

fact: paralysis takes max damage output away from invokers

fiction: only melee characters can wield weapons that effectively slow the movements of their enemies

fact: those who prepare to win or run will most likely survive anyway

fiction: paralysis is a death sentence for any invoker

@Aulian - it was in game with my first crusader, I had taken the least aggressive paths, and your character taught me to hit and run, which was funny because H&R was playing my biggest enemy at the time. Dig dog dang ol' Demon DK's. LOL

In Mya and UC's defense, paralysis does nullify the invokers greatest skill. Does that make it out of balance? NO. It merely gives melee characters a way to deal with said invokers.

Being unfamiliar with this particular whip, I must assume because of the argument, that it can not be destroyed. Otherwise the argument makes no sense. I read a recent shoutout/pk log where the invoker should have won. Unfortunately the invoker stayed in battle with the lions pride guard, instead of following the first rule of pk. If attacked, run, your enemy is ready and you are not. It was the lions pride guard that served as the necromancer's meat shield, it was the same guard who disarmed the invoker. Just my 2 cents.

[The Forsaken]

I can promise that without that whip I never would have killed Sylf with my DK Gearald. It took the whip and a rod of time. I couldn't dirt, or I'd eat 4 call lightnings or 4 dispels or 2 hellstreams. Even with the paralyze whip and a rod of time and Nexus Reaver skills the fight would usually end with me under 150 hp. Some of the most intense knock down fights I've ever had. Without those items? I never would have stood a chance. Sure, DK's have silence. Will it land against a faerie invoker with good saves? Not really. Oh but magic missile helps against saves. Sure does. Have fun casting one of those to the invokers two call lightnings every round and see how fare you whittle those saves down for silence to land.

[Erelei]

I never had a problem killing Sylf. I didn't use that whip either.

[Trick]

I never had a problem killing Sylf. I didn't use that whip either.

 

 

 

Teh best PKer evah! Morlhach iz teh l33t3zt!!!

[f0xx]

Ballsy, Trick. Ballsy

[Trick]

Clearly a joke. Lol.

[Dale]

I killed Sylf - paralyze.  

 

Does that mean I'm l33t?

 

Please say yes, please.

[mya]

"fiction: only melee characters can wield weapons that effectively slow the movements of their enemies"

 

Is this about Dale's "In that same area as the whip is an exotic with the same effect.", because last I checked that exotic was 19 STR, barring the high INT races, (elves,gnomes,Faeries).

It's more about practical use of the thing, since anyone can wield a whip even with 0 prof in it and proc the paralysis before they die.

 

Regarding Sylf and silence. Fought him once around Gerald time with a DK. Silenced him consistently on second/third tries. I went doing my business, and he left me alone.

 

I don't get why is everyone focused in Invokers, sure reducing your damage output to 33% is an extreme case. But this also affects all other casters who get their spell damage output reduced to 50%.

 

This isn't about downgrading paralysis, it's about it equality affecting meeles, by slowing their attacks down and making weapons for mages to use.

[Trick]

I killed Sylf - paralyze.  

 

Does that mean I'm l33t?

 

Please say yes, please.