Regalus OR "Why I'll Never Play a DK Again"

[tassinvegeta]

Just my thoughts. I found it strange that a weapon, once malformed takes a massive drop in certain stats. Any player picking and using that weapon will always be stronger due to that and stays this way for the first few levels. This encourages having to pk equally as weak players until the weapon is just considered normal again lol. On top of this the weapon gets drained even at the lower levels which is quite surprising to me. This forces the dk to take only fights he knows he's going to win for fear that he'll have to take a step backward to re-strengthen those toothpicks over again lol. Usually most skills have some type of benefit immediately when cast/initiated while the drawbacks usually come LATER as a result of the strength of that skill/spell. I understand the strength of this skill has the POTENTIAL to become incredibly huge but theirs gotta be a better way of improving some of the downsides this skill brings when considering the negative affects this has on the playerbase and the sanity of the dk hehe. Here are some ideas;

 

Weapon becomes ownered/nosac much much earlier; Positive: Dk's are less encouraged to run from every battle they may lose (at all stages). The risk is lower of completely losing hours you've worked for in seconds (at all stages). Dk's can be less careful (at all stages). Negative: More difficult to completely destroy a Dk's progress and morale. However the weapon still drains and is weaker upon initial malform so its possible to continue WEAKENING the dk without DESTROYING the dk. Thus this is a huge benefit to the dk without really having the make or break effect on a dk's overall success while still allowing for a dk to lose his powers.

 

Weapon doesn't drain until it reaches a certain amount of souls; Positive: Dk's are less encouraged to run from every battle they may lose (up until a certain points). The risk is lower of completely losing hours you've worked for in seconds (up until a certain point). Dk's can be less careful overall (up until a certain point) when all bets are off and they should be able to stand up on there own. Negative: I can't stop his progress, he's continually gaining strength. But this situation only occurs when his opponents aren't sac'ing his malform. But hey, nothing is stopping me from sac'ins his malform, sowweeet!

 

Weapon doesn't become weaker upon malform; Positive: Positive: Dk's are less encouraged to run from every battle they may lose. The risk is lower of completely losing hours you've worked for in seconds. Dk's can be less careful overall. Negative: I can't kill those newer dk's as easily early on because they're using normal weapons. Any new dk I see may become the next Masokant, Argghhh!

 

As the way I see it now, these things do the following;

 

Vet player: Slow down (not stop) the inevitable Masokant while encouraging less than classy pk/rp (bad/bad)

Moderate player: Toss up (neutral)

Inexperienced player: Makes the class nearly unplayable for them (bad)

 

My goal:

Vet player: Unfortunately speeds up baby Masokant. Encourages more classy pk/rp (bad/good)

Moderate player: Still a toss up, But can fall to either the vet or inexperienced player categories (neutral)

Inexperienced player: Class becomes more playable, funner. (good)

 

Thoughts? Let me know if I missed anything or if you totally disagree. I'm more than happy to discuss.

[Evangelion]

Weapon doesn't drain until it reaches a certain amount of souls; Positive: Dk's are less encouraged to run from every battle they may lose (up until a certain points). The risk is lower of completely losing hours you've worked for in seconds (up until a certain point). Dk's can be less careful overall (up until a certain point) when all bets are off and they should be able to stand up on there own. Negative: I can't stop his progress, he's continually gaining strength. But this situation only occurs when his opponents aren't sac'ing his malform. But hey, nothing is stopping me from sac'ins his malform, sowweeet!

 

Now there's a change I can get behind. Let's say the weapon becomes owner only at level 2, and then can grow to level five without any loss on death. And from there, once you get it to level ten, it can still only drain to level five.

 

That, to me, is a much less destructive system and is more favorable to new players, compared to the usual "Ravage [or avoid] the new DK until they delete or get their malform to level X for owner only/good powers".

 

IMHO, that would make it feel like a viable part of the class for all players, and would also eliminate some of the "I don't want to face that person, because they might actually put up a fight and lower the power of my (still gimped) weapon."

[H&R]

I agree that the malform could be owner only earlier, maybe right away when you make it.

 

What I really didn't like was that the malform could drop several levels if you didn't get to your corpse fast enough after you died. But I think this is changed now?

[f0xx]

Why don't we just give every DK a free lvl10 malform? Everyone will be happy.

[The Forsaken]

You get level two in one kill....

[Mudder]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that DKs become more powerful, only that they are less incentivized  to be a mindless, and potentially cheap, PK machine.

 

Making the class slightly more death friendly while at the same time actually weakening the max strength of a DK.

 

So far the suggestions have been:

• Make Malforms owner-only/no sac very quickly
• Make Malforms unable to drain below a certain low-level point (Basically the weapon stays better than a trident)
• Make L10 malforms able to lose power to a certain level.

As a whole, this will make a DK a little more friendly and less "hard-core" while at the very same time adding an ability to weaken the strongest of DKs.

--

This is over all going to weaken the power spike of the class. I actually think this is a good change. L10 Malforms probably shouldn't be perma awesome weapons forever.

[f0xx]

This is over all going to weaken the power spike of the class.

Your suggestion makes it MUCH easier for a DK to obtain a high level malform. How exactly is it going to "weaken the powerspike of the class". As someone noted, level 2 is obtained in 1 kill.

 

I actually think this is a good change. L10 Malforms probably shouldn't be perma awesome weapons forever.

Well... they are not.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that DKs become more powerful.

You are.

 

Only that they are less incentivized to be a mindless, and potentially cheap, PK machine.

Whether a DK is going to be a cheap, mindless PK machine depends entirely on the DK, and this suggestion won't really change anything. Besides, there is nothing wrong with cheap and mindless PK machines. The lands of FL have already gotten way too safe.

Here is my suggestion to you and Bali, and everyone of the oldies who has returned after a long break: spend some time playing.

There are few things recently changed about DKs:

- There is no level now that a malform is safe from dropping bellow i.e. that used to be level 8 in the past. Now your malform will keep losing XP if you keep dying (because people were complaining that malforms were "perma awesome weapons forever")

- The loss of XP on death is set, so it doesn't matter if you come back to your corpse after one second or after one hour.

- The total kills needed for a fully developed malform have been cut down by quite a bit, to reflect the fact that there are less players now and that malforms don't have a "safe" level anymore.

And lastly, if you want an easy malform, roll a bard

[Dale]

Lets just get rid of malforms

[Mudder]

 

 

Here is my suggestion to you and Bali, and everyone of the oldies who has returned after a long break: spend some time playing.

Actually, I've been searching the forums etc. for things just like these. It would be really nice to have a place where changes like this could be looked into for people who were not around. I actually try to research these things before any post I make.

 

As for your retorts, these weren't my suggestions. I just agreed with them. These suggestions hinged on the fact that L9+ weapons would not drain. That is actually a significant nerf to the class and it seems like they gained very little in return. I'm surprised you think what people have suggested is too much.

 

Sidenote: L2 Malfrorm after 1 kill is not new and the price rises quickly with each subsequent malform level. FL has gotten way too safe but it's not because we lack trashy PKers running around.

 

Yes, any player can choose to act a certain way they see fit. However there is something to be said about a class that promotes and heavily rewards something, while at the same time providing heavy penalties for losing. In the end, everyone is a power gamer to some extent.

 

EDIT: Also, the help file should probably be adjusted to reflect these changes.

 

'MALFORM WEAPON'
Syntax: cast 'malform weapon'

In the blackest shadows, surrounded by the power of the darkest of gods,
a Dark Knight may attempt to cast the most vile of spells upon his weapon.
It is rumored that when successful this evil enchantment calls the attention
of the evil gods of Aabahran, thus breathing malicious spirit into the target item.
From then on as the Dark Knight kills with the object, the spirit within will
feed on each corpse it creates passing the souls it consumes on to its master
deity. When enough of such dark gifts are received the deity often blesses the
Dark Knight by further increasing the spirits abilities. Yet until the
intelligence has grown strong enough, it will slowly weaken if not on its
master's person as it slowly bleeds dark powers.

[f0xx]

As for your retorts, these weren't my suggestions. I just agreed with them. These suggestions hinged on the fact that L9+ weapons would not drain. That is actually a significant nerf to the class and it seems like they gained very little in return.

The change to malforms, that makes them lose XP no matter their level, was a reaction of the staff to the constant whining of the playerbase. I am surprised, that there are now calls to bring exactly that feature back. As it turns out, the "playerbase" doesn't really know what it wants.

 

I'm surprised you think what people have suggested is too much.

My opinion on malforms is the following - just like tattoos, elder and leader positions, titles, godly suits and restrung items, high level malforms (and crusader weapons) are marks of prestige of some sort - be it PK or RP, or both. They are supposed be hard (read VERY HARD) to obtain.

The biggest cause for people not being able to obtain high level living weapons (be it malforms or holy weapons) is the fact that the weapon usually gets sacrficied when they die. Asking to have the weapon owner only at level 2, after a single kill, removes the biggest threat to malforms, thus making it much easier to obtain one, thus making malforms much more common.

Asking for making it easier to obtain high level malforms is akin to asking to have the rare limit raised, to making tattoos much more common and leadership positions handed out much easier, which is detrimental to the game, because if everything is easy to obtain, then players lose interest. If we have no "cool" things left, which happens when you make stuff more common, there is nothing to strive for.

It's why we have rares to begin with, which are not really that rare anymore, which of course, is again a result of a whiny and spoiled palyerbase.

[Evangelion]

F0xx, you're missing one key piece of the equation in your argument: unlike tattoos, crusader weapons, and elder/leader positions, malform weapon is a base skill for a base class. It is not something that anyone applies for, nor is it something that needs to be awarded. Moreover, it is a base skill for the base class that nearly everyone recommends new players learn to PK with.

 

Finally, to reiterate what I think was Tassin's most cogent point: malform is an upside down skill. The minute you cast it, your weapon is compromised and won't be truly viable again until you reach level five or level six. This inherently leads to less thoughtful PK (I won't use the word trashy) because you select opponents based on who you are relatively sure you can kill, not based on your religion/cabal/RP.

 

The only other thing I'll point out is that two or three of the people here that have a ton of experience with well-known, long-lasting DKs spoke out, and I think their opinions should be given some serious weight.

 

I don't know what the right solution to this is - or if there's any solution at all - but the long and short of this thread is that it is the single and sole reason that I will not play another DK. 

[f0xx]

F0xx, you're missing one key piece of the equation in your argument: unlike tattoos, crusader weapons, and elder/leader positions, malform weapon is a base skill for a base class.

So is raise dead. That means everyone should walk around with a trio of the strongest zombies then? Of course not. You should work for them.

 

Finally, to reiterate what I think was Tassin's most cogent point: malform is an upside down skill. The minute you cast it, your weapon is compromised and won't be truly viable again until you reach level five or level six.

Firstly, there is a lot of sense of setting yourself back a bit in order to obtain greater power. Malforms are not the first case of this logic in FL. Look at how warmaster induction system works.

Secondly, your malform, at level five-six is much stronger than its original form. You should know that, you just played one.

 

The only other thing I'll point out is that two or three of the people here that have a ton of experience with well-known, long-lasting DKs spoke out, and I think their opinions should be given some serious weight.

[Evangelion]

Your comparisons are off base, IMHO. Raise dead is not comparable to malform weapon. Raise dead requires you to kill a mob and succeed in casting the spell. The only thing that's comparable to is the actual CREATION of the malform - not the leveling of it.

 

 

Firstly, there is a lot of sense of setting yourself back a bit in order to obtain greater power. Malforms are not the first case of this logic in FL. Look at how warmaster induction system works.

Secondly, your malform, at level five-six is much stronger than its original form. You should know that, you just played one.

 

For starters, you're still comparing a cabal to a base class. And I don't really agree with your second point either, at least depending on the weapon you malform.

 

At the end of the day though, I think it's abundantly clear that we're not going to see eye to eye on this one. Which is fine - I love you anyway.

[tassinvegeta]

Foxx
Why don't we just give every DK a free lvl10 malform? Everyone will be happy.

Totally not what anyone is asking for. Did you really read our suggestions? No one really suggested any changes affecting the way higher level malforms already work with the exception of moving around the ownered bonus which doesn’t directly affect the strength of the weapon.Thoughts?

Forsaken
You get level two in one kill.... 

Yes but I fail to see the significance this has on the playstyle of dk at slightly further levels  nor the strength of this malform compared to other normal weapons that will still be much more powerful until a few more levels on that malform is achieved.Thoughts?

Mudder
Making the class slightly more death friendly while at the same time actually weakening the max strength of a DK.

How did you suggest weakening the max strength of the dk? Sorry if I missed it? Perhaps you were suggesting the installment of the draining system? Which I do agree was needed to keep those high level dk’s in check. But what I don’t understand is when it was implemented was the affect this has on dk’s at lower stages and on less experienced dk’s considered?

Foxx
Whether a DK is going to be a cheap, mindless PK machine depends entirely on the DK, and this suggestion won't really change anything. Besides, there is nothing wrong with cheap and mindless PK machines.

I think the word ‘entirely’ is a bit out of place. Hard coded skills also have a HUGE effect on this. Suggestion won’t change anything? Nothing wrong with cheap and mindless PK? I’m beginning to think you either don’t even read our posts or don’t truly consider the cause and affect approach.

Foxx
- There is no level now that a malform is safe from dropping bellow i.e. that used to be level 8 in the past. Now your malform will keep losing XP if you keep dying (because people were complaining that malforms were "perma awesome weapons forever")

- The loss of XP on death is set, so it doesn't matter if you come back to your corpse after one second or after one hour.

- The total kills needed for a fully developed malform have been cut down by quite a bit, to reflect the fact that there are less players now and that malforms don't have a "safe" level anymore.

All things needed to balance the class. This is what games are about. Having intelligent and productive conversation in hopes of continuing to balance the game.

Foxx
The biggest cause for people not being able to obtain high level living weapons (be it malforms or holy weapons) is the fact that the weapon usually gets sacrficied when they die. Asking to have the weapon owner only at level 2, after a single kill, removes the biggest threat to malforms, thus making it much easier to obtain one, thus making malforms much more common.

Yes the biggest threat to completely losing malforms is sacrificing them. But have you considered the secondary effect of draining at ALL levels that’s still in place? Just my opinion but I never liked the idea of completely destroying a character (full loots) (outlawed captures) but weakening a character seems to promote a better atmosphere. But if that’s what floats your boat…

Foxx
Asking for making it easier to obtain high level malforms is akin to asking to have the rare limit raised, to making tattoos much more common and leadership positions handed out much easier, which is detrimental to the game, because if everything is easy to obtain, then players lose interest. If we have no "cool" things left, which happens when you make stuff more common, there is nothing to strive for.

Perfect logic. Let’s not even discuss incentives for hard work or good behavior or balancing the game. That should increase our playerbase.


Foxx
So is raise dead. That means everyone should walk around with a trio of the strongest zombies then? Of course not. You should work for them.

 

We agree, you should have to work for those STRONGER and high power-spike zombies. But raise dead already has a positive to it as you can raise any corpse immediately. Don’t understand your logic here.

Foxx
Firstly, there is a lot of sense of setting yourself back a bit in order to obtain greater power. Malforms are not the first case of this logic in FL. Look at how warmaster induction system works.

Not entirely sure why this is the case either. But I don’t understand your well logic of “well an issue exists in a completely different scenario in the game so it makes perfect sense why a different issue exists in this scenario.”

Foxx
Secondly, your malform, at level five-six is much stronger than its original form. You should know that, you just played one.

Umm I think we all know this, but don’t understand what this has to do with what we’re discussing. We were referring to the strength of lower level malforms i.e. 0 through 4-5 and comparing them to a weapon any person can just pick up and immediately have a stronger version of that weapon. Combined with drains and sacrifices it promotes a certain type of behavior.

[f0xx]

Thoughts?

...giving and handing out rewards with very little effort is starting to become the norm, and we definitely need to stray away from that.

 

If you can't amount up to it, or can't get a malform to that level, dark-knights probably aren't your forte'.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts.

[Aulian]

Heres my thoughts: 

 

I think malforms should be made o-only on creation - why not? Its non-rare anyway.

 

I think malforms should drain every time regardless of their level - which they do, Maybe the more power a malform has the more the drain? Realistically I think a lvl 10 should be reduced to lvl 7-8 if someone dies (Similar power loss to a full loot? Whatever is appropriate with that in mind). This means your O-only malform can drain back down to level 1 if you die repeatedly but gets harder to do so as it'll scale down. 

 

If the below idea was taken into effect then why not allow them to keep the original weapon stats? And have a base stat level for a weapon at x level. EG:

 

Lvl 1: item becomes o-only - keeps original stats. 

Lvl 2: the item will be set to +1 hit +1 dam unless it has better stats. 

Lvl 3: the item will be set to +3 hit +1 dam unless it has better stats.

Lvl 4: the item will be set to +3 hit +2 dam unless it has better stats.   Then the dam dice multiplier can be changed as the levels progress.

Lvl 5: the item will be set to +4 hit +3 dam unless it has better stats.

 

 

Wha this means is if they take a polearm with 3 hit and 3 dam - then it keeps its original stats but doesnt see a an "improvement" until the 5th level when the hitroll will go up. 

 

 

Heres another idea which goes hand in hand with the above:

 

What if a DK was only allowed to make 1 level 10 weapon in whatever combination they wanted. 

 

What do I mean? 

 

Simply you can choose to have 3 malformed weapon, a level 3, 3, and four. 

 

Or alternatively you can choose two lvl 5 weapons. 

 

Or you can go hard and go for the intense level 10 weapon of doom.

 

Or have a 6 and a 4 etc. 

 

 

Or alternatively: We say DK's can have a total of 16 malform levels spread across any number of weapons they choose - that way you can have two 8's or on 10 and one 6.

 

This will limit DK power. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I have never had a DK where I have monitored the stats of Malformed Weapons - all statistics and item changes are based on an 'idea' and numbers can be changed appropriately to whatever is in line with current guidlines.

[tassinvegeta]

That pretty much sums up my thoughts.

Lol. Sorry. Hearing someone tell ME this is kinda funny.

[tassinvegeta]

Aulian

Wha this means is if they take a polearm with 3 hit and 3 dam - then it keeps its original stats but doesnt see a an "improvement" until the 5th level when the hitroll will go up.

 

I like this idea. Seems like the newer dk's will have a better chance to have fun with the class, while still encouraging more experienced dk's to go for those stronger based weapons in the beginning. All around dk's will have less of hardcoded reason to only take on weaker players. The strong players will be largely unaffected because they'll get passed the early levels anyway.

 

Aulian

Or alternatively: We say DK's can have a total of 16 malform levels spread across any number of weapons they choose - that way you can have two 8's or on 10 and one 6.

 

Yes I do feel their needs to be a cap on how many malforms you can have. Otherwise when a dk starts on a new weapon they're back to playing the same way again. Having 3 lvl 10s should be the most imho. If you realized you made a mistake due to a powerful opponent that's giving you a hard time, you can just use soul transfer, that's what its there for afterall isn't it?

[Evangelion]

Here's the thing. A level five malform is about on par with a mid-range weapon with a proc effect or socket; examples to include Rokujan, Mithril Sabre, Durindel, etc. So the idea that giving a DK access to an owner only weapon that, after 5 consecutive PKs, will be equivalent to those weapons... that, to me, is not some magnanimous godsend of a reward that lowers the integrity or ferocity of the game.

 

No one has proposed any of the following:

 

A. Going back to a system where level 8+ malforms don't drain.

B. Making it easier to get higher level malforms.

C. Making lower level malforms stronger.

 

In a world where I can use RP points, quests, etc. to get owner only goods that far exceed the power of a malform at levels 0-5, I don't think that this is a truly onerous suggestion.

 

Also, let's talk about PK ratios, shall we? Let's say I'm JohnnyTheDK and I get a PK with my shiny new malform. Great, level two! Now let's say to get to level five, I need five more PKs. Woohoo - only six PKs and I've got this rocking weapon. But let's look at the ratios - that's a 6:1 win-loss ratio. How many non-elite players can obtain that, particularly without specifically seeking out lower level or newbie characters to use as the commonly termed "malform fodder".

 

Regardless of anything else, I will stand by the fact that malforms in their current state are an inherent driver for what was not once but now is considered "trashy" or "classless" PK behavior. You can harken back to 1.0 all you want - hell, I just posted those old PK logs.

 

But f0xx - and I'm going to call you out for a second, here - you and everyone else here would be all up in a tizzy if 2-3 caballed characters (at least one of them a qrace) literally grouped up for the express purpose of attacking and killing you. Not an "unintentional gang" or "delayed assist" - intentional, calculated grouping for the express purpose of killing AND full looting you. But that was the norm back then, not the exception.

 

So let's be honest - the "good ol' days" mentality is getting tired, since that was fifteen years ago and the game (and playerbase) lack most if not all significant vestiges of those times.

[Mudder]

My only immediate issues with limiting malforms is that the weapon was literally created with the idea that two-handed malforms should be just as powerful as dual wielding two malforms, just with less attacks.

 

If we implemented this change I think they should be tweaked slightly to take this into consideration.

[Trick]

I don't agree that they should be easier to obtain with their current power level. Level 10 malforms are insanely powerful and can do some VERY mean things. IF that power was decreased a bit and then they were made easier to get. that'd be fine.

 

From the time I started playing FL I have seen DKs sit at lvl 43 in order to get a malform leveled up. I have seen this happen from newbie players all the way to the elite of our DK powerhouses. Even people that have posted on this thread have done it before. Also, I've been personally hit up on AIM and asked this question:

 

" Do you have any chars around 40 I can feed on? "

 

I've even done it myself a long, long time ago. We can say that this isn't the right thing to do and those people should be banned and you're right. Its not the correct way to do things. Or we can look at what is causing the necessity to resort to those kind of things.

 

 

Just my 2cents.

[Mmm Coffee]

Perhaps choosing the Moderate tier for DK's could make malforms easier to level up at the sacrifice of high-end power?

[Mudder]

Perhaps choosing the Moderate tier for DK's could make malforms easier to level up at the sacrifice of high-end power?

I don't think that is a solution because as moderate tier currently stands, it is meant for newbie players and they are literally "second class" citizens, unable to raise beyond a certain point regardless of success.