Baexyra and Desolus

[Brofessor]

I will be figuring out how to sacrifice the equipment on Baexyra soon. Desolus was already stripped.

The playerbase here is so polarized. You have some absolutely cut throat players, and some whose top command is quit. Another thing is the justification behind the functionality of some skills and classes changes depending on if you are giving, or receiving. I was told I was "stupid" for trying to outmelee a warrior, because they are the masters of melee combat, and it was stupid to think I could defend better than one. Espescially when they use weapons my class cannot use. So I rolled a warrior. I was able to get to 74/66 hit and damage rolls respectively. I was outmeleed by: bards, rangers, ninjas, and blademasters. In every instance I used weapons that the opposing class could not, yet I was still hit much more often regardless of my knowledge of their weapons, and superior hit and damage rolls. There is also the fact that the weapon defense/offense table seems helpful, it is misleading. I was both more offensive, and defensive, with a mace than any other weapon. I landed moreblows with 103% in mace, and caused greater damage with a lower avg damage weapon, than I did with 105% in axe and a higher average damage axe. I understand variance happens, but this is a discernable trend over my entire time playing this character. 

Next I would like to address player retention. I have seen a few people arrive, myself included. The chat is a VERY hostile place for a new player. Any issue I had that I brought up in chat, I was essentially told I was just whining. Now on one hand you old players know the game in, and out so these little nuances make sense, and are fine with you. They don't to a new player. How am I supposed to know that minotaur charge will kill me, requiring them only to flee and charge again? The answer is I don't know that. I get killed by it multiple times, and stare frustratedly at the screen. You cannot expect a player to stay somewhere that they are mocked for what they feel are genuine issues. This is reflected by the size of the playerbase sadly. This is a very well thought out game, with a rich history. It seems player habits are causing some issues. A primary example is logging off. Real world issues happen, anyone can see that. A large portion of characters will simply log off in the face of opposition. The game's primary focus is get armor, get armor, get armor. Unless you are fully armed run. If they can give you opposition, run. If you only have 30 curative items, run. I have had people tell me their reason for logging off was because they where beginning to run low on Nymph hearts. 


The game itself is very immersive, and addicting. Though I do not know how it could be made more friendly.

I know many of you will take this as me being a newbie who is just whining. Possibly true, but isn't the demographic you want to be friendliest to the frustrated newbie? Aren't those the people who push the game forward?

[Naruthiron]

From the standpoint of the (mostly) silent observer...

I saw multiple times where the chat backlash you describe was brought about because you undermined the efforts of those same people who were trying to give you advice. Asking for help, telling the helpers that they are wrong, and then saying you felt abused when they got annoyed with you is not a hostility on the part of the people in chat, rather, it is behavior brought about by your way of dealing with frustration. Being told that you are wrong does seem to bother you (naturally, nobody likes being told that their observations are flawed), and there was a time or two where perhaps not having the rapport with some of the players to understand their quirks led to some unnecessary anger. However, coming on here and calling an environment hostile without giving any indication of your own involvement in it leading to that point is just wildly misleading and not likely to help in any way.

The weapon list, to my knowledge is not incorrect. There are many things that go into the offense/defense of weapons. That table is not, nor was it ever meant to be, the be-all-end-all guide to weapons. It gives you an idea of what to expect from each weapon class. There is also randomization in hitroll, so what you saw could very well have been just how the statistics worked out at the time, or it could have been a difference in weapon knowledge. 

74/66 is good, but it doesn't mean you will auto-win. Most of the top melees sit around 90/80  (When stacking hit/dam). Either way, relying on hit/dam to win is not a good way to go about it. Your armor class was often lacking, making it far easier to hit you, and far easier to land more damaging blows. You need to balance out your equipment if you want to be as strong as the better players. 

 

If you are not ready to fight, you log out. Period. It is up to you to determine what ready to fight means, and that definition can change depending on who you are fighting. That said, continuing to log off instead of fighting does get noticed, and is very much considered when deciding who advances in their cabal, and who gets what (non-RP, usually) rewards. 

I think that a lot of the frustration is that you are coming to a game that is over a decade old and expecting to be on par with the people that have honed their skills and knowledge over the entirety of that time. There is a lot of information out there (which comes from them - they tend to share) and it can do a great deal to close the gap, but realize that a lot of these players don't have anything to really learn about the game anymore. They reached the stage of playing in which they experiment with the meta-game and serve as a driving edge for how the game evolves. They are used to playing against every combo, and know exactly how to handle them each time. You are still learning. Stop trying to be the best all the time, losing is going to happen. It's how you handle losing that determines how far you will get. 

Sorry you feel like this game isn't for you. If you decide to come back, wonderful! If not, then I hope you take care. 

Edited: Added clarification for the hit/dam numbers I presented.

[Anume]

As to hr dr.... I usually have 40 - mid 50s on my chars. It's not all about hit/dam, it's also about ac, saves and defense boni.

 

If you got outmeleed, I suggest you submit pk logs.

 

I can only comment on the one fight I snooped and I already gave you my feedback on this. For an ogre, catching the ticks is even more important than for anyone else, also some preparation was lacking.

 

As to full suits, I've fought and won in cabal gear + 3-4 other pieces, it is well doable. I've also seen other chars doing this (Ilthrias is a prime example here, Garacci did it too I think). Cabal gear is far from not viable in MOST pks.

 

What I saw on your charaters was a tendency to go solely for the top pieces for every slot. This is not necessary to stand your ground in pk nor even to win most of the fights. More practice will get you better than top eq plus only going after top eq all the time is not so much fun, as you said yourself.

[Mali]

Honestly from what I have seen you are a beast, and seem to know the game inside and out. Having traveled with these characters as a friend I would say your learning curve as been remarkable, although secretly I hold suspicions that you are zrothum or emp.

Either way, you are always welcome in our community, and I would say based on my limited knowledge that you may find FL more enjoyable with less activity.

Re: logging out, I can speak for many of us with babies or bosses, or babe bosses, that when that dinner bell rings it is time to go. Without saying too much, the combat timer is there for a reason, and there are some cool skills that can make it easier to track and keep people on their toes.

Re: Minotaur - charge has been slightly modified to make that tactic more difficult to pull off. But who plays a minotaur anyway?

Re: chat, I always enjoyed our conversations.

My best,

[tassinvegeta]

You're welcome to PM if you'd like some advice on warriors. I did see some weaknesses in your approach that I can probably help with. But as some hinted to already, it would be nice if you were a bit more open to criticism.

[Zhurong]

There are a lot of things that come into play with warriors, as well as any other class. First and foremost are the stats of your race. Str gives hit/dam depending on how high it is, str also plays a part in the defenses of two handed/shield block/parry. Dodge is more so dex based. Dex also gives the basis for the amount of ac your character is going to have without armor. The higher the dex, the higher the ac. Ac will determine how well your rolls are to defend against the attacks. There is a lot more to playing melee than just going for hit/dam. As for Naruthiron saying the top go for 90/80 hit/dam is just, woah. There are diminishing returns on almost everything in this game, and IMO I believe everyone is fine with just about 40/40 - 55/55. If you need or want advice, ask on the forum. Send some private messages to those that are able and willing to help you. Frustration will happen, FL is a rough life.

[Celerity]

@naru, yeah, that is a very inefficient hit/dam. There is no way the top melees use 90/80 (unless there has been some INTENSE equipment bloat in the last couple years). Secret tip for newbies: Take what the staff says with a grain of salt...they are often infamously weak in PK

 

As always, if you are losing in melee to other classes as a warrior, please post a log that includes your score sheet, equipment (ideally theirs too), and practice sheet.

 

Logs are the only way people can give you concrete advice as it shows all the information we need.

 

If a ninja is beating your decked ogre warrior in melee, there is something very abnormal going on.

[Brofessor]

I dont have the log, but if Demokles can post it I would love to see it. He was dual wielding a dagger, and unsure what his primary was. I was getting hit 2-4 times a round, and the best round Ihit him 3 times wielding axe/whip with over 70 hitroll.

[Anume]

Naru is a decent enough pker by now, however he's still talking bard pre-fixes/ / balancing I bet

[Naruthiron]

It's been a while since I've had time to have a mortal character

[Naruthiron]

I dont have the log, but if Demokles can post it I would love to see it. He was dual wielding a dagger, and unsure what his primary was. I was getting hit 2-4 times a round, and the best round Ihit him 3 times wielding axe/whip with over 70 hitroll.

 

 

What we really want to look at here is -AC. Wielding Axe/Whip does not automatically mean you're gonna hit him. It makes it easier, sure, but it isn't a guarantee. It also means that you have such a little chance to defend (parry/riposte/etc) that you're going to notice quite a bit more pain. It would be really helpful to take a look at who was wearing what as a total package, not just weapons. It's really easy to look at weapon choice alone and think that is all that really matters. It's not, though.

Glancing at Demokles shows that he is doing very, very well for -AC. This is the most likely reason you were struggling to hit him. I noticed that your fights with your warrior tend to go pretty quickly. This is due to you going heavy on hit/dam, and falling behind on -AC. Your hits pack a punch, but you defend like a piece of economy roll wet toilet paper. When your -AC is half of what your opponent's is, then you are going to get hit quite a bit more no matter what you do. Try to balance out your equipment more. 

[Brofessor]

but with 650 ac my cleric was being beaten on like a rag doll by a warrior. Using an axe who had less hitroll than my current warrior

[Magick]

I was told that not all -AC is created equal thanks to THAC0.  Namely that Mages < Rogue < Warriors if all were wearing the same suit.  As I'm not sure how accurate this information is, I'll leave it there.

[Mali]

Plus the fact that you win and lose speaks to the games balance.

[Naruthiron]

around 50-60 hitroll is all you should ever need. So less hitroll can still hit your cleric. -AC has diminishing returns as well, so best to keep that in mind. Do you have a log? It's hard to say anything one way or the other without looking at a log. 

[Naruthiron]

THAC0 explained:

When fighting an opponent, each attack you make has a roll associated with it, much like D&D (in fact, D&D 2e is where THAC0 system was popularized). 

When you attack, you roll the dice for each attack. Your opponent's Armor Class affects that attack roll. The lower the Armor Class, the more it affects the roll (that is why AC is more negative when it is better). 

Each class does have its own THAC0 (at least it did several years ago, this may have been changed). 

The math for an attack roll essentially comes out like this:

Base roll + Hitroll + Enemy AC (that's why negative numbers are good) = Attack Roll 

You then plug that number in here.

if
 Attack roll >= THAC0
  hit
else
 miss

This is not taking defense skills into account. Defense skills are rolled separately when an attack is deemed a hit. I don't know 100% how that system works.

Disclaimer: This is how the parent system (THAC0) works in D&D 2e. While it should be, and most likely is, the same here, I am not a coder and am subject to being wrong on its implementation in our code. The AC values here are quite a bit different than in D&D 2e, so I would think that there is a separate calculation for how much your displayed AC value influences the AC attributed to the roll. 

[Brofessor]

There are too many things that are not constant across the game. AC values mattering differnetly per different classes, The ninja vs warrior melee bout was a prime example of something that escapes logic. I was told I was being stupid (in prayer forum no less) for thinking I could stand toe to toe with a warrior as a non warrior because they are the undisputed masters of combat. I am then crushed in a matter of rounds by a ninja. A class with less hp, less defensive skills, and less hit, and damage roll using weapons I am trained in using. I understand variance happens but this game is a series of math equations. You can calculate skill in as a variable, but skill is more influential over a drawn out fight. Skill is less an issue when one party is simply run over.

I would ask Demokles to post the most recent log, showing eq, and statistics.

[Anume]

Funny remark: same ninja complained he is not vialbe in melee vs most melee classes

[Brofessor]

Something's rays MASSACRE you!

Someone's hunger MUTILATES you!

You dodge someone's attack.

Someone's life drain MUTILATES you!

You sure are BLEEDING!

Something sears your flesh with flames.

Someone's flaming bite hits you.

You sure are BLEEDING!

You can feel something dig into your body.

Someone's wrath injures you.

You sure are BLEEDING!

 

Someone's poison scratches you.

You fire from something and hit someone with no shots.

Something's pierce misses someone.

Your chill maims someone!

Your acidic bite devastates someone!

Your chill MUTILATES someone!

Someone's hunger MANGLES you!

You parry someone's attack.

You dodge someone's attack.

Someone's hunger MANGLES you!

Something sears your flesh with flames.

Someone's flaming bite grazes you.

You can feel something dig into your body.

Someone's wrath MUTILATES you!

 

 

Yes, very not viable.

 

[Anume]

Well, as many of us said before, we'd need a full log with affects and eq to really comment here.

[Naruthiron]

This is what I am talking about when I mention how poorly you react to criticism. Rather than accept that the fault may be your own, you try to come up with every reason why it isn't, and ignore the advice and reasons provided by people with FAR more experience. The common denominator with you losing PKs is you. Not anyone else. 

You are getting hit more because your Armor Class is far lower. You're getting damaged more because he is hitting your vuln. Your gear choices leave you exposed. Defense is far more important than offense. Especially when learning. 

[Celerity]

You are blind without sanc or protection (it looks like). He probably had both and may not have been blind. Get your protections up! In this round:

 

Someone's poison scratches you.

You fire from something and hit someone with no shots.

Something's pierce misses someone.

Your chill maims someone!

Your acidic bite devastates someone!

Your chill MUTILATES someone!

Someone's hunger MANGLES you!

You parry someone's attack.

You dodge someone's attack.

Someone's hunger MANGLES you!

Something sears your flesh with flames.

Someone's flaming bite grazes you.

You can feel something dig into your body.

Someone's wrath MUTILATES you!

If that happened every round, you'd have a good chance of winning, even being blind, no sanc, and no protection. ;p

[Brofessor]

We where both blind, I had sanctuary and protection.h

[Brofessor]

RE: Naruthiron


I am taking what is said under consideration, and trying to apply it. I am simply raising my concerns while listening to it. I once asked on prayer about a scenario of a warrior fighting my cleric. I was made to feel stupid for trying to stand toe to toe and fight the warrior for previously mentioned reasons, that is all I am saying, using information from Wiki, and essays, im following protocol for being superior in a straight melee fight. Now it is coming to light that perhaps several of the essays need rewritten, as they are outdated. now. It IS frustrating to do as much research as I have, only to realize I have been postulating, and theorizing with bad information. Stressful even.

[Mali]

You can post threads asking for constructive feedback in much better ways my friend.

 

What you may realize is that we build the game together. If you don't think the essays are informative, why not write a new one? Everyone is here voluntarily and the staff does not get paid, and in fact are just players that have been rebranded and that contribute their own time to developing the mud. 

 

Threatening to delete in a rage because someone said something to you on chat, because you lost a pk, or because you don't like minotaurs is detrimental and does nothing for the forum or for your development. 

 

Ask the question directly about ac or hit/dam instead of tying the thread to a rage delete. If you are done with the character, that is fine as well, and you may consider posting a score sheet up with some shoutouts and some hints into the characters life, goals, and roleplay. 

 

We are all on the same team and I would love to see you apply your creative energies to making the forum more accessible and the game a more robust world.