People are evil

[f0xx]

This will be a long post so bear with me please. I think you will find it enjoyable.

Now I am not a religious person, but there is a line in some religious book somewhere that goes into something like, "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you". This single line is what I believe defines goodness and everything one does that does not comply with this line falls into some form of evilness.

But what does this have to do with the game?

Now I haven't been playing for a few months now. The last character which I actively played was Tkanzhar (a half-undead, demon dark-knight, for those of you not familiar). Now Tkanzhar had a pretty nice K/D ratio (~110 kills/4 deaths) like most of my characters. He also had a lot of IMM attention, active RP, personalized items, 4 high level malforms, basically everything most people dream about. I spent an incredible amount of time developing the character. Now that I look at my files, it turns out that I've had some odd 300 custom emotes for different situations, a lot of which were never even used.

At one point though, I lost interest at playing. I had a couple other projects which were also quite successful at that time, but I had no desire to play them either. I had no desire to log in. I still don't have it. I've tried a few times since then to roll a character, and every single time I end up with "meh". Part of the problems stems from the fact the playerbase has shrunk quite a bit, but that has never really stopped me from playing before. So there must be something else.

Today I found the answer to my question. 

So, when I stopped playing I had a lot of time in my hands and nothing to do, so I started playing a different game - LoL (League of Legends). Now I don't play it that much really, but what I read today in their forums, rang very true for our little game too. Here is the original post -  This game is a nightmare for new players. Please take your time to read it.

Now the situation in FL has improved dramatically, especially for new players. Of course, there is still much more which can be done, but what I've personally found is that, there are very few (close to none) new players. And while people are starting to care a lot about new players (and naturally so), what I've found is that the situation has gotten very bad for our "vets". Now when you are on top of the food chain, you get to witness some pretty douche tactics some people use in order to make you feel miserable. 

!NOTE! - I am not talking about killing here, I am talking about actions whose sole purpose is to make you feel miserable. In this game, killing someone doesn't inflict much damage really. OOC, cheating, bug abuses just to mention a few. I can go into some very specific details but I don't think it's really needed.

Recently I saw a thread by some of the newer immortals titled - "What would you like to see?" In this thread, I saw all kinds of sh!t replies like, "more global RP".

What I would like to see is less evil players. More fairness. I would like to see an environment which caters and PROMOTES classy play. It took us quite a while to create a system which promotes RP, but last I played, it worked well and RP was flourishing. Now we need to work on a system which PROMOTES class and fairness. Just as we need to work on a system which punishes douchebaggery, OOC (like transferring OOC grudges between characters), bug abuse.

What I would like to see is a system, not a mere set of rules - a system which PROMOTES good and classy players and punishes evil ones, who gain their pleasure from making others feel miserable. Then we will not have to divide players to "new" and "vets", because it's easy to be nice to someone weaker. Real class come from being fair to someone on your level, or higher.

[Mmm Coffee]

I find this slightly ironic coming from the player who once fireballed me and my mercy'd PK opponent (killing both of us) to feed your malforms   Was quite a few years ago though.

[Trick]

I wouldn't call my request for more global RP a "shit reply", first and foremost. For me, you just destroyed the legitimacy of your entire post be referring to the opinions of others as shit. 

Despite that, though, I can understand your post and the reasons behind it. No one here is going to openly admit that they treat another person like garbage in game. No one here full loots either, but damn it if they don't happen. In my opinion, levying criticism without providing a solution makes you part of the problem. By that I mean, you are saying we need this, but are failing to detail or describe what could be done.

Everyone here knows how to treat another person. We can all be chill and not be a dick to someone in game. But when we are a dick we try to cover it up with " I'm a drow, its my RP ". We all know what is acceptable game behavior and what utterly fucks people over making them not want to play here. For the most part, I'd say a lot of us do a pretty good job. But there are quite a few people that do whatever they want when they want. 

I wonder if there is really a "system" that can be created to alter the actions of others outside of rules.. How can you directly affect the mindset of someone playing a game without rules and regulations?

Well, we have the RP system. Positive RP can be awarded to players that IMMs see doing the right thing. Fighting fair, not full looting, not being a dick in tells, things that IMMs already do. What kind of workload would this put on the IMMs? If you see a positive reaction from people in game, post it to shout outs and that behavior will be reinforced.

Despite everyone saying what a great community we have here, and it can be at times, it is also extremely negative towards one another. I think egos and pride are the root of this. You lost a fight? Its because of cheating and IMM favorites. You see your enemy promoted faster? Cheating and IMM favorites. You see someone with an RP item? Cheating and IMM favorites.

Cheating and IMM favoritism is the go to answer for why something didn't go your way. Players rarely take responsibility for their own fucks ups anymore. And besides, its a GAME. I understand the emotional investment in a character, I do. Hell, I get moody and depressed from just writing some of the journals that I do. 

Just stop. Just stop being malicious and cruel to other people because YOU don't have what YOU wanted. 

 

[Naruthiron]

You hunger hits you.
Your thirst scratches you.

...cheating imms.

[sith_da_pirate]

[Erelei]

It's unfortunate, but 3/5 replies were essentially against the whole post because of who posted it.

Maybe some ideas to help this become a reality, f0xx? And try not to be so blunt next time - our player base has really thin skin unfortunately.  

[Mali]

If you look back to the history of the mud we actually achieved this before by banning NZ.

[Kyzarius]

I always try to help out opponents but in the end it is a competitive game that rewards you for winning.

Humans by nature like to win and will do what they can to get ahead. 

The problem here is that the concept of classy play is difficult to quantify.  Is  looting not classy? How about killing an under geared player to feed a malform or path of deciet? These things are part of the game.  

I had people roll characters just to ensure I would die.  Is that classy? Or does it just bring on a challenge.  

 

We have a fuzzy concept here that is nested in opinion with no clear cut definition of what is or is not acceptable.  

[Archangel]

53 minutes ago, Mali said:

If you look back to the history of the mud we actually achieved this before by banning NZ.

LMAO...1000 internets to you, sir.

 

 

 

 

[f0xx]

@Mmm Beer I don't claim to be an example for classy behaviour. I've done some pretty trashy stuff myself in my earlier years (mostly due to being a noob) and in my more recent years (mostly as punishment to characters I perceive as trashy).

@Trick I view that as a shit reply because asking someone to give you "more global RP" is like asking someone to give you "more muscles". It all depends on your own dedication and it's extremely hard to achieve, because that is how it is supposed to be.

As for a suggestion on how to practically implement such a system, I am not certain myself, hence why this is not in the "ideas and suggestions" part of the forum. I've been thinking about some sort of an account system that will have all of one's past characters linked up to create some sort of a player profile. Players with a good profile will generally be able to achieve things easier than players with bad profile. By things I mean Qstuff, Cabal rank, RP plots... generally IMM assistance and cooperativeness. This is a double edged sword though, because it is basically asking for an official "favoritism" system to be created. Still though, I believe it will have the desired effect of deterring people from acting trashy and giving incentive to stay classy.

[Atticus]

as long as I get to buy Zhothum's profile for 30$ im down.

[egreir]

In your dreams.

[Atticus]

miss you SENPAI

[Kyzarius]

Wtf, you watching but you ain't playin.  Step up son! 

 

You playin.  I know you playin.

[Trick]

On March 21, 2016 at 2:34 AM, f0xx said:

@Mmm Beer I don't claim to be an example for classy behaviour. I've done some pretty trashy stuff myself in my earlier years (mostly due to being a noob) and in my more recent years (mostly as punishment to characters I perceive as trashy).

@Trick I view that as a shit reply because asking someone to give you "more global RP" is like asking someone to give you "more muscles". It all depends on your own dedication and it's extremely hard to achieve, because that is how it is supposed to be.

As for a suggestion on how to practically implement such a system, I am not certain myself, hence why this is not in the "ideas and suggestions" part of the forum. I've been thinking about some sort of an account system that will have all of one's past characters linked up to create some sort of a player profile. Players with a good profile will generally be able to achieve things easier than players with bad profile. By things I mean Qstuff, Cabal rank, RP plots... generally IMM assistance and cooperativeness. This is a double edged sword though, because it is basically asking for an official "favoritism" system to be created. Still though, I believe it will have the desired effect of deterring people from acting trashy and giving incentive to stay classy.

 

As far as trashy behavior, I think its safe to say the majority of players here have done or acted in a way they are not particularly proud of and I don't see a reason or necessity to hold anything above anyone's head.

I agree with your statement about global RP being highly depended on your own dedication, I think that's fair to say, for sure. I may not have described it appropriately when I brought it up, but I what I was leaning more towards was IMM to IMM RP that is visible to the mortals. For instance, the Morlhach and Anume fight that recently took place. I think when players see things or feel like things are happening on a cosmic level it makes you want to be more involved. But, I can agree with points of your opinion, as well.

An accountability system is something I believe is already in place. I have no actual proof of this, but it wouldn't be hard to imagine the Staff maintaining a profile or thread in the IMM only forum revolving around each player and their characters. I think this helps keep everything straight when they are interacting with several characters and keeping different individual plots going. As far as favoritism, I think that's a bullshit argument. I think they naturally like certain RP over other RP and that's just because of personal taste. Players assume this means their RP is bad or deemed not as good. That's not the case at all. Different strokes for different folks is all.

I think the biggest con of this sort of a system would be grudges. If I act like complete shit on one character and lose my cool and act like an idiot, how badly will it affect me later on? If I mouth off to the Staff, which does happen, what is the likelihood of my QRace application being judged off the RP, application, PK, and other in game factors VS my OOC temperament and behavior? Is it fair to consider someone's forum personality for something in game? I could argue both sides, honestly. 

I think its a very slippery slope and if this system is in place or being discussed, I'm not sure I'd want to know. Keep your nose clean, follow the rules, be chill to people, and you won't have anything to worry about..  But.. look at my first statement.. People make mistakes and do things they aren't proud of.. Would Tkanzhar have been around if they took your past behavior into account? I think that's only something you can answer honestly. 

Interesting..

 

[Naruthiron]

Quote

An accountability system is something I believe is already in place. I have no actual proof of this, but it wouldn't be hard to imagine the Staff maintaining a profile or thread in the IMM only forum revolving around each player and their characters. I think this helps keep everything straight when they are interacting with several characters and keeping different individual plots going. As far as favoritism, I think that's a bullshit argument. I think they naturally like certain RP over other RP and that's just because of personal taste. Players assume this means their RP is bad or deemed not as good. That's not the case at all. Different strokes for different folks is all.

 

Why should we be in charge of that? We can't be watching everyone at once. We have a lot on our plates as it is. I would eventually like to have time for a mort again. No offense, but what you suggested would make that impossible with my schedule, and I know that other immortals would see the same issue. Morl's been tearing through code and fixing a LOT of bugs and making cool new implementations, as well as re-balancing. Making it so that we keep track of your characters' RPs on such an involved level only detracts from other areas of focus.

This is why we encourage that you create prayer threads for your characters, where you post RP sessions and logs, so we can read them. That way, the RP is logged, and it's not us spending hours in our day managing logs for characters that may be deleted in a week.

 

Quote

I think the biggest con of this sort of a system would be grudges. If I act like complete shit on one character and lose my cool and act like an idiot, how badly will it affect me later on? If I mouth off to the Staff, which does happen, what is the likelihood of my QRace application being judged off the RP, application, PK, and other in game factors VS my OOC temperament and behavior? Is it fair to consider someone's forum personality for something in game? I could argue both sides, honestly. 

 

A non-issue. We do not consider OOC factors when judging RP, managing applications, managing clans/cabals, or rewarding characters. The current Knight L and I had a fairly big dispute which originated from a forced name change on another character when I first started. This should not be taken to mean that we don't consider trashy actions on your characters. You best believe that if a Qthing acts a fool, or you start actively trying to make somebody else's experience crap, we WILL notice, and you WILL see repercussions.  Grudges, however, have no place among the staff.

[Trick]

For the record, I didn't propose the system. F0xx did. I was responding to HIS idea of an accountability system.

[Celerity]

On 3/21/2016 at 2:34 AM, f0xx said:

@Mmm Beer
@Trick

As for a suggestion on how to practically implement such a system, I am not certain myself, hence why this is not in the "ideas and suggestions" part of the forum. I've been thinking about some sort of an account system that will have all of one's past characters linked up to create some sort of a player profile. Players with a good profile will generally be able to achieve things easier than players with bad profile. By things I mean Qstuff, Cabal rank, RP plots... generally IMM assistance and cooperativeness. This is a double edged sword though, because it is basically asking for an official "favoritism" system to be created. Still though, I believe it will have the desired effect of deterring people from acting trashy and giving incentive to stay classy.

 

An account system?! An account system? Genius! Why hasn't anyone ever thought of that before? --- Wait, that is what I said in this thread. Here is my suggestion from way back in 2007. Here is another account system thread from 2009.

 

Reputation is going to be built and remembered no matter what. If there were such a history of characters, both the staff and the players would be able to amass objective evidence to point to. This actually weakens the favoritism claims, as there will be some substance to show for the argument. For example: I had a character that did xx bad thing xx years ago, but look, I have put xxxx hours into these characters without problem over xxx amount of time. Vice versa as well. This is only a good thing. Just like people force RP because they get points for it, people are more likely to maintain a good reputation because they get 'credit' for it that is always on their record. More positive incentive and less negative incentive, so it is a win-win.

[egreir]

On 3/22/2016 at 7:42 PM, Kyzarius said:

Wtf, you watching but you ain't playin.  Step up son! 

 

You playin.  I know you playin.

Someone's gotta run this place....

[Volgathras]

I'm glad this has been brought up. I'm not so keen the response, but we'll get to that.

It's very important that we periodically assess where we are. In fact, we do that every day. Every time any member on staff logs in to the forums, we're going over what we've missed, our short term plans for the day/week/month, and then our overall plans as a group. Part of that, of course, is the standing the player base, and the community. As such, it's always appreciated, and recognized, when the players come forth. F0xx, even though there is occasionally some friction, I will categorically state that we appreciate the fact that you've always got the game in mind. That's just as true for you, too, Celerity, and anyone who spends their time working towards improving the game we love. It makes it ours, as a whole, and while the Administrative staff may be 'in charge' of policy and direction, we know that this game belongs to you.

It's also very important - arguably more important - to remember where we've come from. Progress is important to assess reasonable, actionable goals as well as short-comings. If we are to regard solely the issue of community behavior, I think we can all agree that things have seen an astonishing improvement for a solid chunk of time. Back when I was just rolling my first character, there was a lot of excitement in our community for the game, but also a lot of contention. We were seeing bans, threats and flame wars constantly. Now, we hardly ban anyone. Flaming is kept to a minimum, and we hardly ever have to warn for it. The staff hardly ever has to resort to 'threats', and when we do they're usually more than justified and rarely result in stringent punishment.

You can also see how we fare via juxtaposition. LoL, for example, has a famously toxic community. It's gotten much better, but they had to hire the equivalent to a psychologist to find ways to deal with the issue. While LoL and FL are like apples and oranges, we are both online platforms that sport a highly competitive environment.

I think it's fair to say we've seen some exciting improvement in the way this game is handled, and how we treat each other. This is due to many factors. On the Administrative side, we've seen policy changes in how we deal with issues; we've moved from a more strict and confrontational stance to a no-nonsense leniency (if that makes sense. i.e., we're cool until it's been proven being cool isn't helping). We've instituted directives that have helped to curtail poor behavior and punish the good. Some examples are the warning system on the forums in place of bans, and even the RP points which sways some of the focus from PK domination to interaction and exchange. But where we are is just as much the result of your efforts. Instead of flaming we move to respectful disagreements. Instead of full looting maybe we stay our hand and look forward to the next good fight. It's a team effort that has undoubtedly paid off.

None of this is to indicate that our work is done. It never will be. As mentioned, the very way we're built allows for some leeway but also that 'gray area', which is anathema to the general idea of fairness. In truth, it's MORE fair because, with such a small pbase, we're able to take more things in to account instead of handing out blanket 'the rule says this so that's what it is'. Still it makes for a challenge when proposing, designing and enacting policy, but it's a challenge we're dedicated to tackling - as we have been for years, which has seen improvement by leaps and bounds.

The conversation has shaken some ideas lose, and I'll be making a new proposal for the imms when I can solidify it a little more. Rest assured that it's something we will continue to discuss, in the effort to continue our game's development - because that's what it is, and that's what we're doing. Developing, moving forward every day.

It's a long post, but let me extend it just a little further by concluding with the affirmation that I'm proud. Not just of the game, or our staff, but of the players. Through concentrated effort, constant self-evaluation and community discourse we have pushed to make FL better. And so far we've succeeded. Yes, numbers are down, but I can 100% guarantee it's not due to our community. When people get involved, they stay. That means we're good people. So I'm proud of where we are, and how far we've come as a family. You guys are not evil, but we can get better.

So we know where we've been, and we know where we are. We still have problems with poor reputation. We still have problems with creative interpretation of the rules. We still have problems with accusations of cheating and imm favoritism. But now we know, and we can find ways to address, and eventually overcome those issues.

Really guys, keep it cool, and keep up the awesome work. We will too, I promise.

Kudos to the lot of you.

 

[sith_da_pirate]

I am the worst with this. FML