English language related question

[f0xx]

So, a friend of mine learns English and has to answer the following question: "Where did you spend last summer"

And he wants to reply with "I spent my last summer at the mountains."

My questions is, does he use "at", or does he use "in", "on" or "by".

There's an example in the previous page of his textbook which says "I went to the Rila Monastery, a wonderful place in the mountains." So, using this example as a proof, he wants to use "in" in his own answer, which will therefore look like "I spent my last summer in the mountains".

 

Help?

[Naruthiron]

In.  

[Vaerick]

I believe you use in when it's a mountain chain or inside a mountain, like a cave. If it's a single mountain you can say on the mountain.

[Erelei]

All sound correct in English, (except maybe "at", which would usually be suggesting the location was an attraction with a name; at the Appalachians - could be better used with "in" here, too)  which all depends on how he exactly spent his summer. Was he next to the mountains at a beautiful villa? (By) Was the villa on a road within the mountainous region? (In). Was the villa on top of the mountain(s)? (On). 

 

Personally I would complete it as:

I spent my summer in the mountains. 

Or

I spent my summer in a beautiful cabin in the mountains  

 

Hope this helps a little bit - English is a frustrating language. 

[Magick]

All are prepositions in this case.

In: expressing the situation of something that is or appears to be enclosed or surrounded by something else.

By: indicating location of a physical object beside a place or object.

At: expressing location or arrival in a particular place or position.

On: physically in contact with and supported by (a surface).

 

We will be living in the mountains for a week at Big Bear by the lake on the ground.

[Naruthiron]

One word answer... answers the question. 

 

One paragraph answer... answers three questions that weren't asked.

 

[Erelei]

No one cares what naru thinks anyway. 

[Naruthiron]

The trick to this is...

 

The mountains = region

Regions are not specific locations,  so "at" does not work. You don't say "at New York" you say "in New York". 

By does not work because its a spacial relation. It describes the "where" by associating it with a nearby landmark or region. 

On does not work for the same reason as by does not work. 

 

 

Most simple explanation: regions are general locations,  so they use "in". Places are exact locations, so they use "at". Unless you're describing where a location (exact or general) is by association, you do not use by or on.

 

Now you know why one word answers are better. 

[Celerity]

How to use positional prepositions (in/at especially) for ambiguous areas is actually fairly difficult in English and it is a common question I've encountered in teaching.

With a discrete point (not an area), it is fairly simple. At the table, on the table, and by the table are all clearly understood. When you turn that table into an area with volume** (a desk with drawers), then you can start using 'in' the desk as well.

 

**Of course any object can be turned into an area with volume. I'm really talking about conceptual volume, a perception that is generally held by English speakers that this particular object has a meaningful volume, typically with interior space. A wallet and credit card both have real volume, but only the wallet typically has conceptional volume in most circumstances.**

 

Let's take a mall. This gets a bit harder. By the mall is pretty clear. But what is the real difference between in/at the mall? In terms of -meaning-, not much. They both refer to the space that the mall occupies. Conceptually, they are slightly different. If you think of the mall as a discrete point--that is a place without meaningful volume (to your conversation), but you want to meet an ambiguous point, then you can use at the mall. If you think of the mall as an ambiguous area, in the mall would be technically appropriate.

 

You can mix these in the same sentence, but 'at' will always be more specific than 'in'. Let's meet at the mall in the city. Let's meet in the city at the mall. Those are both OK. You cannot say: Let's meet at the city in the mall.

 

What difference does this make? Not a whole lot. There is a slight difference in that 'in' conceptually references an ambiguous point to the volume of an ambiguous area and 'at' conceptually references a discrete point to an ambiguous area, but this is hardly a rule. Both can, and are, used for both meanings. It is just a slight insight into the speaker's conception of the mall as relates to the particular circumstances of the sentence. It isn't something to worry about, even for a native speaker. In this case, 'at' might subtly refer to the entrance or perimeter of the mall--some discrete point.

 

Using the process I just explained, we can derive the differences in prepositions for the case of mountains. 'In/at' are a lot easier in this case, but are complicated by 'on':

In the mountains : within a large ambiguous area, a region of mountains

In the mountain : inside the volume of a particular mountain--a tunnel or cave

At the mountain : an ambiguous point referencing a discrete point--such as common meeting area, the base, the entrance

On the mountain : an ambiguous point referencing an ambiguous area--somewhere in the area, but on the surface that the mountain occupies, probably at high elevation

By the mountain(s) : in the area around, but not directly within the area occupied by the mountain(s) -- such as a beach or other area next to a mountain

Between some(those/the) mountains : in the low middle area, typically said in reference to another point such as "in a (valley/gorge/river/etc) between some mountains"

On mountains : a generalization of all mountains : Goats can live on mountains. Some humans live on mountains.

--

Grammatically correct, but with very uncommon or conceptually confusing meanings:

At the mountains : better said as in the mountain or at the mountain

On the mountains : a very large object that is physically on several particular mountains (we'd use 'in' for clouds/fog; through/between/vector prepositions for rivers, and 'on' for solids such as snow)

--

Examples:

I stayed in the mountains last summer. I stayed at my mountain cabin last summer. I stayed at that mountain over there. The ski lodge is on the mountain. The ski lodge is in the mountains. Let's meet at the mountain, near the station. Let's meet on the mountain at the ski lodge. I live by a mountain, so we get a lot of fog. I live in the mountains on the west coast. I've never lived in the mountains. I've never stayed overnight on a mountain before. The military has a base in that mountain. The military has a base somewhere in those mountains. The military has a radar on the mountain. The military has a base at Mt. Fuji. The military is camped by the mountain. The military is camped in the mountains. The military is camped somewhere by the mountains. Let's meet at the ski lodge on the mountain. Let's meet in the hotel by the mountain. Let's meet by the hotel on the mountain. Let's go hiking in the mountains on our summer vacation.

 

It all has to do if your mind is categorizing something as a discrete point or area and then how it is referencing another point/area. Because people think of the same things in slightly different ways, people will inconsistently use these prepositions. It is a complex process and a lot of work to master for very little gain. It gets even more complicated when you consider all the other meanings that prepositions can give (duration/time/vectors) or if you consider things such things as a set of discrete points or imprecise conceptions (such a wave or particle problem in physics) or multiple/changing reference points.

[Naruthiron]

Now you REALLY know why one word answers are better...

JK Cel.

[Atticus]

On. He was hiking right?

[H&R]

Haha, wow. Are you an english teacher Celerity?

[Celerity]

Yeah, I got my masters in linguistics and taught English/business for several years.  I am a banker now though

[f0xx]

Ohh a banker, what a dirty word.

[Pali]

It's not like she said politician or lawyer (otherwise known as "Pali's parents").