Implementor Erelei Posted August 31, 2016 Implementor Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 It's actually not terrible advice. Two hand block with a high dex race > shield block. But what do I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egreir Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 You know nothing, Jon Snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aulian Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 I dont really remember but can't a cleric use shield block and holy hands at the same time? Isn't that a way better idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trick Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 Probably the worst advice I've ever heard, ever. Like.. out of good advice and bad advice.. Its definitely on the bad advice side of that spectrum. If you need any advice about the differences between good and bad advice, please head over to the Newbie Section. Mya will handle all inquiries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celerity Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 6 minutes ago, Erelei said: It's actually not terrible advice. Two hand block with a high dex race > shield block. But what do I know. Can you back it up? My understanding is that two handed and shield block are equal defenses except when blind, there is a weapon proficiency gap, or when there is a hitroll to ac gap. When facing superior melee output, a shield negates some of that advantage. You also get a stat bonus from the shield and require two kinds of disarm to lose your defenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Implementor Anume Posted August 31, 2016 Implementor Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 You get over this border where you mostly die by fighting. First step, don't die. Second step, kill people. WM and Syndi are both good to learn this, serks are not so good to learn this bc you can't flee so easily. I recommend you just do something that you enjoy and then fight with it. Post your logs, look them over yourself, look at what other people suggest. We have a ton of logs on the pk section where you can see even vets making very funny mistakes. Nobody is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trick Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 Like getting stuck fighting a mob in the Asylum.. pfffttt!!!! #rekt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egreir Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 Or getting caught unghosting on water without a boat. Man, I don't think I'll ever let you forget that lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mya Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 12 minutes ago, Celerity said: Can you back it up? My understanding is that two handed and shield block are equal defenses except when blind, there is a weapon proficiency gap, or when there is a hitroll to ac gap. When facing superior melee output, a shield negates some of that advantage. You also get a stat bonus from the shield and require two kinds of disarm to lose your defenses. For me they are both equally awful when blind. So don't fight blind as a Cleric. Ever. Now the weapon proficiency doesn't affects shield block, that is why you use it vs a meele because with a 2handed you will be eating the "not know his weapon" massive penalty to weapon block. Sure a 2h staff is great defense, but what you gain, you lose and staffs are awful for offense. And there is the disarm thing 1 vs 2. Still it's all very situational and play-style related. If you are an extremely agressive FG with lots of Damroll, you will get more benefit from a 2h Fire mace offence game. Or if your oponent is a Dwarf and you got the water mace. If you are a drow who traded hit/dam for AC and only use magic as offence, then a Shield and the extra AC is better ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trick Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 That's good.. because I don't remember it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloth Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 Factually incorrect, 2hand defense is indeed better than shield block for high dex. Minotaur berserkers get hit a lot because low dex and berserker. Good part of why they are inferior to ogres. They look good on paper with that charge, but in reality they are worse. They just don't have the durability to make it work, as berserkers are so easy to hurt. Minotaur is better with warrior unless you take a very specific route, in my experience. Berserker is not an easy class. Their skill floor is much lower than other melees, and require a lot of calculation for their bread and butter skill to be an effective choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egreir Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 1 minute ago, Trick said: That's good.. because I don't remember it.. I'd subconsciously erase it from my memory too I can't even remember my archer's name now, but we were in the water near the sanc herbs...we were tossing insults back and forth, you unghosted...I moved a room away and shot you to death while you were stuck without a boat...it was glorious lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trick Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 #feelsbadman Hey.. you guys wanna see the posterboy for epic failure? Insert Burn Comment Here. #toosoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmm Coffee Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 Based purely on the diminishing returns you get with Hit/Dam, I never see the point of playing the path with biggest rage bonus. Anger and the middle one are the best choices IMO because they have way more utility and you can still get very juicy Hit/Dam numbers. My $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mya Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 18 minutes ago, Lloth said: Factually incorrect, 2hand defense is indeed better than shield block for high dex. Minotaur berserkers get hit a lot because low dex and berserker. Good part of why they are inferior to ogres. They look good on paper with that charge, but in reality they are worse. They just don't have the durability to make it work, as berserkers are so easy to hurt. Minotaur is better with warrior unless you take a very specific route, in my experience. Berserker is not an easy class. Their skill floor is much lower than other melees, and require a lot of calculation for their bread and butter skill to be an effective choice. 2 handed weapon block being better for high dex races doesn't make a lot of sense. - 1) Because weapon block has always been associated with high STR on FL, for example Gigants get a bonus to 2handed. And it makes rl sense. - 2) Because the code, unless changed recently, favors STR players differences by a factor of 2 over DEX, when checking chance to weapon block. And I know that if you guys made a change to this paradigm (2h == STR), you would be kind enough to make a change warning like the one regarding parry that was latter reverted. 15 minutes ago, Mmm Beer said: Based purely on the diminishing returns you get with Hit/Dam, I never see the point of playing the path with biggest rage bonus. Anger and the middle one are the best choices IMO because they have way more utility and you can still get very juicy Hit/Dam numbers. My $0.02 The rage hit/dam bonus is the smaller of the damage enhancing factors in rage. There is no diminishing returns on a devastation FG with a fire weapon insane bonus to damage (outside of damroll thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mmm Coffee Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 Ok - so one race out of all possible zerks makes a beautiful devastation combo. Personally, I prefer a Corvette over a Hellcat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trick Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 I like ogre devastation.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloth Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 Actually, Mya, its dex over str. When we changed it to make sense there was an uproar and it was reverted. Also, side note to mmm beer, devastation is the most defensive berserker while raging, as players have noted in the past. I would wager that is why its so popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mya Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Mmm Beer said: Ok - so one race out of all possible zerks makes a beautiful devastation combo. Personally, I prefer a Corvette over a Hellcat. No, I just like to see huge damage and FG have the potential to beat Ogres in that department. No reason why a Storm devastation or fury can't do as well as a zerk. I bet a FG devastation in Nexus reaver could match and surpass a high sight crusader for damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mya Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 30 minutes ago, Lloth said: Actually, Mya, its dex over str. When we changed it to make sense there was an uproar and it was reverted. Also, side note to mmm beer, devastation is the most defensive berserker while raging, as players have noted in the past. I would wager that is why its so popular. I though it was parry that was changed and reverted back, not two handed. Can't find anything on two handed on changes. All Classes: Dodge is now dependent on DEX, changed from being dependent on STR. Parry is now dependent on STR, changed from being dependent on DEX. -AC now diminishes more the higher it is. Starting at ~1000 at 25% decrease, smaller decreases the closer it is to 400. (e.g., 1000 AC roughly translates into 750 AC instead). All perm-fly classes can now use 'fly' to rise up into the air and fly. All classes whom are currently flying, can 'land', dispelling the fly spell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celerity Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 Still wondering how two handed being dependent on dex makes it a better defense than shield block for a cleric against a melee. Shield block works better in adverse conditions (basically all the time in a cleric vs warrior fight) plus the benefits from the shield itself and disarm layer. Furthermore, you want to use a blessed (evil) weapon for the significant parry bonus over holy hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mya Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 "Furthermore, you want to use a blessed (evil) weapon for the significant parry bonus over holy hands. " If it's the same, Holy Hands beats a mace, even with parry bonus for defense. Not offense. Because you take out of equation attacker hitroll, weapon knowledge and weapon type bonus. Don't go thinking that holy hands is the end all defense. It's a shitty defense uncomparable to shield block, but one that you can depend on, somewhat like blur. Most defenses block about 50%, this blocks 1/3, but parry when facing an axe you don't know (you get penalized hard from not knowing the weapon, plus the offensiveness of the axe) gets crushed to the lower ceiling of 1/4. That's why I recommend holy hands. Of course all this talk is probably moot, as Morlarch probably changed this all in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Implementor Erelei Posted August 31, 2016 Implementor Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 You have code from years and years ago. Things change. If I wanted to tell you all the secrets, I'd have a github. Unfortunately that's not the case here. This administration has been completely transparent in how things work - and I'm not going to start posting code to prove myself. Believe it or not - it doesn't matter to me. The discussion, however, is great. That said - I have not changed anything regarding defenses in my tenure here as coder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celerity Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 That sounds a lot like the stance that Behrens took. You could very well be right, but without evidence, we'll never really know, and we go back to the arguments that people actually do make. You've done some really good things, but this is not one of them. That is just my opinion and I certainly don't mean it as a criticism of the work you've done for the game. I do think it should matter to you, though, and for more than just 'enjoying the discussion'. It really should, and that part made me a bit sad to read. Is the player behind Lloth known or is the staff secret identity thing still in effect? There are only a very few people who I would listen to on PK advice, and since the staff name of Lloth means nothing to me, I'm curious about the weight behind the words. If it is a secret, please forget I asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aulian Posted August 31, 2016 Report Share Posted August 31, 2016 2 hours ago, Erelei said: That said - I have not changed anything regarding defenses in my tenure here as coder. Lazy. Just sayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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