Necromancer vs Ranger

[Ambroas]

I'd like input on these two classes since they're the mob classes in the game.  One gets access to the sick melee gear, dual wield, pugil, bow and some magic while the other gets more pets and casts spells.  There's any ways to match these two up so let's compare them in pvp both with and without necro getting the sleep jump, exploration, pve and whatever else ways you'd want to compare.  I'm not considering a Necro anytime soon but I do find them interesting.

[egreir]

Equally geared and skilled without the sleep jump ranger wins 10 times out of 10.  My opinion.  

[f0xx]

That's very arguable. A smart necro has so many ways to dispatch the ranger's pets (without even engaging the ranger), and without them, he's just a gimped warrior. IMO, out of all the melees a necro has to fight, a ranger is the easiest battle.

[Ulmusdorn]

Anyone want to help the gent with his entire enquiry rather then just who thinks who can kill who? 

[f0xx]

Oh, I think I misunderstood his post. In PvP he actually means ranger/necro against other combos.

So, necros I consider one of the mages with highest potential out of all the mages. They have a strong melee output, strong spell output, strong maledictions, the ability to lag, the ability to heal themselves. If they catch you unprepared, you are dead, 9 out of 10 times. They can do well against any class and have no real bane, except perhaps blademasters, and even then I've fought some very skilled necro's that have wrecked me. They deservedly have a very high skill cap and a lot of their power comes from their pets, and that requires a very particular playstyle. I for one, do not consider myself good enough to play that class, even though the latest changes have made it much more playable. Their PvE is very strong, if you are a skilled player. If not, you will get owned.

Rangers on the other hand are a hybrid between a necro and a warrior, but fit in the shoes of neither really. I personally think that every player that does well with a ranger, would do better with a warrior. That being said, they are very newbie friendly due to defenses that are almost on par with warriors and damage output that is almost on par with necos. The fact they can camouflage helps too. The only real advantage they have over warriors is that they are a bit more versatile in the form of thunderstorm and insect swarm. There are some tricks with your beasts too, that can help in PvP. Rangers also have a hard time against classes like Battlemages, Warriors, Invokers.

Generally speaking, rangers are the more newbie friendly version of Necros, but IMO, have no chance of reaching the power level of them. I personally aim to play a strong necro one day, when I get better.

Players who are good with rangers: @Trick

Players who are good with necros: @Mmm Beer, @Kyzarius, @Mindflayer (inactive)

[Aulian]

It all depends on these new changes with Zombies.

I would of said that old style necro's at their peak are much stronger then rangers  but this also depends on race and class.

Dumela in his god suit died to Azun because Azun was an awful awful thing for a halfling to run into. 

Maybe someone who knows a little more about the New Necro's? @Celerity 

[egreir]

7 hours ago, f0xx said:

That's very arguable. A smart necro has so many ways to dispatch the ranger's pets (without even engaging the ranger), and without them, he's just a gimped warrior. IMO, out of all the melees a necro has to fight, a ranger is the easiest battle.

Very arguable, eh?  Ask the veteran player behind the  Savant E decked illithid necro how his fights vs my ranger go.

[Kyzarius]

I think it can be very simply stated.

 

Necromancer gets more advantages in PK.  Dispel, summon, can hit hard with spells or apply poison, plague, weaken.  Can heal with vampiric touch.

Ranger has an easier time of PVE.  Melee superiority, better melee defenses, camo does add survivability.  Heal is limited in use. 

 

Now that the necro does not rely on a group to build up their horde things flow much better for the class. 

[Mmm Coffee]

A Necro vs. Ranger fight is pretty simple in terms of tactic.  At least, the way I always approached them.  I haven't played one since the new changes so I can't comment on power peak now.  I was good with Grezath because I was good at PvE with a necro...which meant I could solo my way to Traven/Gasteride - two of the best, if not THE best zombies.  With the new changes, that point is moot.  As for races, it seems people favor illithids for necros.  Having played illithid, avian and most recently, undead...I would never play an illithid again.  Their defense is crap which leads to you spending more time vamp touching mobs than fighting your opponent.  Sure the high INT might land you an easier sleep/dispel - but ask anyone who fought Grezath, the amount of times I opened with sleep were few and far between.

My approach to fighting rangers, assuming regular preparations (sanc, missile shield, flight, etc)

1. Turn off autoassist.

2. order all k <pet 1> and walk a step away, wait for the yell.

3. Come in and blast until pet 1 is dead OR if you think ranger will flee/camo...blast the ranger and hope for faerie fire.

4. Next step is typically try for a blind or dispel - depends on the opponent.  If you're not dealing much damage, dispel.  If you are, blind.

-----

Another approach is to summon pets away.

The above goes for ANY opponent that uses charmies, except maybe DK's.  If they're using a crab, put it to sleep.  Warlock, just fight the DK.  Tribunal?  Kill the blood guard first - they can't summon one for a while after.  Same for Watchers - kill that green dragon first.  Knights are up to you...that's the one charmie I don't try to kill.  Vanguard is the only one that's difficult and you won't kill it fast enough to try.

With Grezath I went for HP with as much AC as I could.  I had over 1300hp and around -400 AC with buffs.  Another reason non-illithids make better necros IMO is curse weapon.  You'll have a noremove staff (preferably one with a slotted ember in it) so you get an extra chance for blinding.  I preferred the frigid staff - it's proc is a STR debuff.

Healing consumables are a must.  Wand of wind is gravy

Edit: Also, never underestimate the power of a well-timed "ord all rescue <me>" - most opponents are very narrow-minded when it comes to PK.  They repeat the same tactics every time you fight.  Log fights, learn tactics, learn when to rescue.

[Aulian]

+1 Mmm - Good advice

[Kyzarius]

only thing i would debate is the illithid vs other races comment.

leech, cone of force, shock, a weaker yet non disarmable parry, biggest mana pool, high int for success on mental spells.

Illithid come with their own bag of tricks that makes them quite viable and on equal footing with the other two. 

[Mmm Coffee]

Just personal pref.  I played Xylithix several years ago (Savant illithid necro).  With the exception of Grundor's minotaur who got the best of me a few times, I did pretty well.  Mostly though - I had to get the drop on my opponents.  If I had to eat a couple murder rounds, that made the difference of fleeing vs. fighting. 

The difference in defense when playing Grezath (albeit  he had 110 parry) was night and day.

[Kyzarius]

The new necro paths work on that though.  They shore up those weaknesses.  One of them VERY specifically helps.  And another choice allows you to pick between more offense or a "mammoth" type pet.  

IIRC illithid parry received a slight buff as well. 

[muddmann]

It still sucks ad far as I can tell atleast.