A few thoughts of the game after I have returned

[Zavero]

No, I am not trying to suggest that making a standardized system is a bad thing. I think it would be great for various reasons actually. I am trying to suggest that without a larger player base than the current one then it will not matter what you do. You have what, 8 cabals? Lets say you have 20 players total (not include immortals) that play at any given time throughout a month. Well... you're never going to fill those cabals unless those players have two or three characters caballed. Each character you add removed time from other characters. If you had 40 players then you would have more caballed characters in theory.

I was not trying to spit on his idea. I think it's a great idea. I just don't see it fixing the player base issue and the cabal warfare issue.

 

Edit: This is only an example, I don't have any actual numbers or data to support my numbers. It is only based off my play time and what I have seen.

[the_nightmare]

A test for a month or two wont hurt, will it? Do we have anything to loose? I think no more.

[Gaunticles]

The real problem is why do people log off, put all your effort into fixing it an stop arguing with each other.

No game should be designed in a way where it's rewards you for not playing.

example 1. Savant sees 4 warmasters on better log off.

example 2. Lich sees 3 watchers, 2 knights on better log off.

example 3. Warmaster is alone, sees 4 Savants on better log off.

It's a repeating cycle that happens all the time, it explains why people complain nobody is online and pvp is stale.

[Zavero]

Just now, the_nightmare said:

A test for a month or two wont hurt, will it? Do we have anything to loose? I think no more.

You're absolutely right. It cannot hurt to at least have a test trial.

+1

[the_nightmare]

4 minutes ago, Gaunticles said:

The real problem is why do people log off, put all your effort into fixing it an stop arguing with each other.

No game should be designed in a way where it's rewards you for not playing.

example 1. Savant sees 4 warmasters on better log off.

example 2. Lich sees 3 watchers, 2 knights on better log off.

example 3. Warmaster is alone, sees 4 Savants on better log off.

It's a repeating cycle that happens all the time, it explains why people complain nobody is online and pvp is stale.

Actually I will stay and keep playing until i die and then log off. Also, the way I suggest the cabals will be filled with people and you can always rely on someone to help.

[Gaunticles]

Just now, the_nightmare said:

Actually I will stay and keep playing until i die and then log off. Also, the way I suggest the cabals will be filled with people and you can always rely on someone to help.

Well you are one of the few who do. I don't mean to imply that it's wrong to log off or expect you to get gang banged all night. I noticed others and even myself have done this. 

It's not really fun to be attacked from all sides and constantly be on the run.

[the_nightmare]

Just now, Gaunticles said:

Well you are one of the few who do. I don't mean to imply that it's wrong to log off or expect you to get gang banged all night. I noticed others and even myself have done this. 

It's not really fun to be attacked from all sides and constantly be on the run.

Trust me, I know how the old FL 2.0 and earlier FL 3.0 was with filled cabals and dynamic warfare ( Most of us know) . Its much much more fun. I prefer to die from time to time than just to fart fiddle around and hoard for items.

[Anume]

It's not like all cabals are currently empty and a ton of people are queing up to fill the gap.

It's more of a problem in the form Gaunticles outlined above: if a cabal has 2-3 strong players, other people are less likely to play opposing cabals.

Let's look at the current cabal situation:

cabal            total   active in last 3 days

Knight            5          5     possible new inductions: 1-2 but neither has met full requirements

Nexus             6          3     possible new inductions: 1 (will probably be allowed soon, Lloth is very active. Char met the requirements only today)

Syndicate        9          8     possible new inductions: 2, 1 space left, we will see who makes it

Tribunal          2          1     posslbe new inductions: 2 (Trib Imm is on vacation for 1 week and will do the entrance exams after)

Watcher          4         4     possible new inductions: 1 (Watcher Imm is out of town till next week, I expect them to get in once he is back)

Warmaster      8         6     possible new inductions: 1, already clan allowed (other chars have no clan quests)

Savant             6         4     possible new inductions: 0 (there are no new characters in the clan who do quests, just old ones who pop in irregularly)

Herald             3         3     possible new inductions: 0

 

 

So it is not exactly like there are 5+ people in a clan waiting to be inducted and the Imms are just mean and spiteful and not letting them in.

If a cabal Imm is gone for > than one week, another jumps in to clan allow people. If you feel you fulfill the requirements but are still ignored, chances are you did something your cabal Imm did not like, ask on prayer. Also compare with stickied entrance requirements thread.

As to just allowing everyone to apply immediately, this holds several problems, one is that for example for tribunal, the player should know the laws, or we (the staff) will be bothered with a lot of complaints about them doing their job wrong. Also, this is a PK AND RP enforced mud, and 1 day old characters without any rp whatsoever should not expect to get caballed immidiately.

 

[Kyzarius]

This is a debate I should just stay out of to be hoenst.  I just always sympathize with people who do not like the cabal system.  

Though to be completely honest I never have a problem getting into a cabal.

I do wish the old system was back for promotions up to T though.  25 quests and 30 hours I think it was.  Then you self promote.  

On my first ever cabaled character, Aarianna in Savant , I got to T just stumbleing along.   Typed cabal promote saw I needed quests, so I looked for them, and was motivated to learn the game.  Until anithraril outcasted me for giving gear to an evil lol.   I lost sanctuary and freaked, I was so bad.  To think I had a neutral faerie temporum T invoker...who only lost sanc....

[Ulmusdorn]

I am out of town but I'll comment.

1. Behrath wanted to be a Watcher. Behrath was level 30. Behrath sent me a note saying he wanted to be a Watcher. I told Behrath what I wanted and needed from him to be a Watcher. Behrath agreed. He applied on the spot under the guidelines I set. 

 

You do the clan quests, write the notes, you'll get to be in a cabal as soon as you like. 

 

2. Automatic T in cabals.

Don't like it. I think characters should have a natural progression guided by their imm. If you're good you'll become T quickly. 

You're ASKING to be TRUSTED. how do I automatically trust you to fight against odds? To uphold our laws, comandments, creeds etc depending on your cabal if I haven't had a chance to judge you? 

Tell me if I'm wrong but don't you like working in the stages? My cabal has no idea what I expect of them to become E. But its not going to be easy. It will be a massive step up from T but how could you know what I expect at all if you just got auto T.

 

Would you be happy spending 30+ hours getting to T automatically to wait 1-2-3 months for E?! 

I don't know. You tell us.

 

[Tempirion]

We've recently reestablished new imms to dead cabals to take care of most of this.  Generally what I've seen as the problem is the lack of a pool to pull new players.  I've started a campaign to get a bunch of our players back and it's worked fairly well thusfar.  We need a marketing strategy to outsource to mud players.  Let's be fair, it would be rare to see actual NEW Mudd players these days.

[Celerity]

Has the staff considered putting one staff member in charge of ALL cabals? This would ensure a consistent induction time and rate.

 

I'm not sure that a pet cabal for each staff member is the route to go.

 

 

[Manual Labour]

Might be neat if each cabal had an Immortal NPC that any Imm could control. That way all Imms could run all the cabals together.

[Tempirion]

Each cabal generally has its own RP which is molded by its perspective IMM.  That IMM generally rps, molds stories, and punishes/rewards their own members.  I'm afraid if we lump sum all cabals youd lose that flavor.  I don't really think induction is a problem as of recently and if you are having an issue post.  We do have lives like all of you.  We are so human and make oversights.

[Mmm Coffee]

So, i admit I only read the first 3-4 posts. Someone may have mentioned this already -but- if it's adrenaline you seek, and you're not caballed, wouldn't it be quite the rush to try and take down that "future" cabal enemy before you are inducted?  At least test the waters?  Jesus, I haven't played in a few months except for random logins with an old ninja but there were no shortage of people to fight even in my Merchant armor

[the_nightmare]

I dont know...for me this clan quests are useless and prove nothing. What Ulmusdorn did with Behrath , this is a prime example of a player ran cabal. I am thinking that we must return the old induction system at least for 1 or 2 months to test. Of course there will be cabal immortal as always that looks over his guys, promotes them demotes them and etc...

[Killfiend]

A prime example of this. No hard feelings at all. Drudge. I spent a lot of time waiting to get into Nexus, never did, I ended up having some issues and stopping with him. A week later, I logged onto and old char that I haven't played for a very long time, and not more than 5 minutes later, I was allowed to send in an app to nexus. Just my opinion here. When a char puts time and effort into joining a cabal, he should get it. Not the guy over here that hasn't logged in for several months. Sure there might have been more variables in this situation that I am unaware of. Like I said just an example here.

[Magick]

4 hours ago, the_nightmare said:

I dont know...for me this clan quests are useless and prove nothing. What Ulmusdorn did with Behrath , this is a prime example of a player ran cabal. I am thinking that we must return the old induction system at least for 1 or 2 months to test. Of course there will be cabal immortal as always that looks over his guys, promotes them demotes them and etc...

 

I disagree.  Clan quests prove that you're active and willing to do what needs to be done to get your induction faster, even if it's just running errands.  It's just one way to get noticed.  The 'automated' way.  It's not like you don't also get some gold/exp out of it too, but that's minor and I digress.  What Ulmusdorn did with Behrath was reward Behrath's initiative.  Behrath did more than sit in a clan and wait for the induction message, getting pissed because he had to do clan quests.  He basically stepped up, made himself noticed and was rewarded in turn.  If he keeps going above and beyond, he won't need to wait the 10 hours to go from I to M and another 10 to V.  The Imm can promote him as quick as he wants.  In a sense, yes, this would make the cabal player run.  The player is taking initiative and making the player's game fun, the Imm's game fun and potentially the rest of Watcher's game fun.  All the way to the potential for the entire Pbase's game to be fun.  A player stepping up has wider repercussions than one that just sits on their laurels, waiting to PK.  And while the reigns might be firmly in the hands of the Imm, from my experience, they can be quite slack and allow the player to do what they want in the cabal in terms of running it.  What you're suggesting in this last post is how I see it being run currently.  Except no open door policy.

[Trick]

You guys are all crazy. Cabal induction is NOT slow at ALL. I've rolled, trained, pinned, and been allowed to apply to a cabal in less than 24 hours. 

The ONLY reason I am largely in favor of player run cabals is that it offers a new dynamic and leadership to a cabal. Generally, IMMs have their idea of how the cabal is supposed to behave, operate, and involve themselves in the world. That stifles RP considerably. I've been told NOT to do something by the Nexus IMM because it might have negative consequences to an alliance. The cabal IMM shouldn't have ANY say in a cabal alliance. If the other members of the cabal don't like it, then THEY can do something about it. Especially from an IMM that claims to be chaotic, let me mess some shit up and we'll see what happens.

Cabals that allow the mortal leader to fully take control will often see more progression and differing RP from one leader to another and that will help reduce the stale feeling that everyone is complaining about. It makes you say things like; "Martineius' Era" was like blah blah blah while "Zoichan's Era" was like blah blah blah. 

Having new leaders is a GOOD thing, but it doesn't mean anything if the players can't really do what they wanna. 

All the above being said, other than my example regarding Nexus, most cabals I have been in have been fairly receptive to any RP I throw out. As Belderon I was often told to do whatever I wanted to do by Zoichan. He summoned me up and told me that I am in charge. 100%. I just had to have a reason for why I was doing something. 

[the_nightmare]

28 minutes ago, Trick said:

You guys are all crazy. Cabal induction is NOT slow at ALL. I've rolled, trained, pinned, and been allowed to apply to a cabal in less than 24 hours. 

The ONLY reason I am largely in favor of player run cabals is that it offers a new dynamic and leadership to a cabal. Generally, IMMs have their idea of how the cabal is supposed to behave, operate, and involve themselves in the world. That stifles RP considerably. I've been told NOT to do something by the Nexus IMM because it might have negative consequences to an alliance. The cabal IMM shouldn't have ANY say in a cabal alliance. If the other members of the cabal don't like it, then THEY can do something about it. Especially from an IMM that claims to be chaotic, let me mess some shit up and we'll see what happens.

Cabals that allow the mortal leader to fully take control will often see more progression and differing RP from one leader to another and that will help reduce the stale feeling that everyone is complaining about. It makes you say things like; "Martineius' Era" was like blah blah blah while "Zoichan's Era" was like blah blah blah. 

Having new leaders is a GOOD thing, but it doesn't mean anything if the players can't really do what they wanna. 

All the above being said, other than my example regarding Nexus, most cabals I have been in have been fairly receptive to any RP I throw out. As Belderon I was often told to do whatever I wanted to do by Zoichan. He summoned me up and told me that I am in charge. 100%. I just had to have a reason for why I was doing something. 

This is what we discussed up, that it is slow for some cabals while very fast for others.

[Trick]

Is it honestly THAT slow? I mean come on... Its no slower than it has ever been in the past. In fact, it is 10x faster than it has been in the past EVEN when they were mortal ran cabals. Have some dedication to your character. If you plan to get Leader/Tattoo and whatever else then you shouldn't be worried about getting it super fast. 

I bet you that it feels slower to get in a cabal because you are getting trained and to level 50 faster than ever before.

[Lloth]

6 hours ago, Trick said:

The ONLY reason I am largely in favor of player run cabals is that it offers a new dynamic and leadership to a cabal. Generally, IMMs have their idea of how the cabal is supposed to behave, operate, and involve themselves in the world. That stifles RP considerably. I've been told NOT to do something by the Nexus IMM because it might have negative consequences to an alliance. The cabal IMM shouldn't have ANY say in a cabal alliance. If the other members of the cabal don't like it, then THEY can do something about it. Especially from an IMM that claims to be chaotic, let me mess some shit up and we'll see what happens.

Let's not misrepresent. 

It is entirely the Immortal's responsibility to actively discuss and prevent rule-breaking when it occurs. An alliance means that you cannot do some actions. If those actions are taken, the imm can, and should, step in to correct it. It's about consistency, if nothing else. Many players in the past have gotten absolutely reamed for killing members of an allied cabal, even in the interest of enacting a "betrayal" RP. It's against the rules. If it were me that messed up cabal alliance rules, I would be glad that I got an RP conversation to explain why that's bad, as opposed to the very negative connotation involved in being pulled up and talked to OOC about why you dun goofed. I try to lean towards the former. I bust enough balls here, I don't need to be gruff in-game too.

Not meant as a "calling you out" thing, by the way. I just catch enough shit from people for telling them "No" or "Here's why you're wrong". Would rather nip any other rumors in the bud.

[Trick]

54 minutes ago, Lloth said:

Let's not misrepresent. 

It is entirely the Immortal's responsibility to actively discuss and prevent rule-breaking when it occurs. An alliance means that you cannot do some actions. If those actions are taken, the imm can, and should, step in to correct it. It's about consistency, if nothing else. Many players in the past have gotten absolutely reamed for killing members of an allied cabal, even in the interest of enacting a "betrayal" RP. It's against the rules. If it were me that messed up cabal alliance rules, I would be glad that I got an RP conversation to explain why that's bad, as opposed to the very negative connotation involved in being pulled up and talked to OOC about why you dun goofed. I try to lean towards the former. I bust enough balls here, I don't need to be gruff in-game too.

Not meant as a "calling you out" thing, by the way. I just catch enough shit from people for telling them "No" or "Here's why you're wrong". Would rather nip any other rumors in the bud.

Let's clarify.

Its NOT against the rules. It has never, in the history of Forsaken Lands, been implemented as an OFFICIAL rule in ANY standard outside of a cabal IMM saying, " Don't do that. "

Help alliance, cabal, trade, trade2, pact, rules, or the divine mandates do NOT say that it is against ANY rule to not follow an alliance. Nor should it be.

The political system in FL should be forever changing and adapting to the characters that are in play. This is a HUGE problem in my eyes. Enforcing an unofficial rule that STIFLES role-play at its very core is limiting the growth and expansion of this game. Do not deny role-play in a role-play game. Telling anyone they can't do something that is 100% allowed in the form of RP is a monstrous negative and you, as the IMM, should be punished, not the player. Now, if someone is just rolling a character to fuck it up on purpose, then I fully believe that kind of behavior is extremely noticeable and able to be stopped by the Staff.

 

If there is a help file or document states it is against the rules, then I will eat my words and we can discuss why it shouldn't be there. 

[Lloth]

It's been severely punished in the past. As the imms can no doubt verify, I am a stickler for consistency. Ask Chesta about how it went for him when he did it. I'm not saying any one way or the other is right or wrong. That's not my place. Just one voice in the crowd on those matters. I can only say how it is, how it's been done in the past, and how I will remain consistent with the decisions made previously. That was my sole intention with that post.

[Trick]

It shouldn't be. Its not a rule.