Offensive output

[Ambroas]

I was rereading some posts and figured I'd ask:

Is it true that ferals have the highest physical output of damage in the game?

I know their hp would be lower than an ogre and str is less than even a human's so how is that possible?  I've always gone ogre for the high hp but I'm starting to think that feral would be better since I'd only be weak to fire and would have less mobs hitting my vuln.  This isn't a feral vs ogre thread it's feral or ogre vs the world thread.  If a mob doesn't hit either's vuln who would be better at killing it the fast high ac feral who apparently hits more or the slow lower ac ogre who hits harder with more hp?

[kamikazi]

From my observations, if we are talking about mobs - the ogre. Pc's - the feral.

[Anume]

Depends a lot on playstyle and eq. Ogres also have faster regen, so keep that in mind.

[Ambroas]

I do, love ogre regen!  I'm hoping one day on an ogre ranger to get the worn leather arms.  I'd also love to see how an ogre berserker would do with healthy perk and maybe two cornerstones.

[Fool_Hardy]

24 dex and automastery mean that the feral gets hit less than the ogre.

Little help here? But if I remember, high dex also improves the chance for cumulative attacks.

As in Second, Third, Fourth Attack.

This would mean that the ogres hp advantage and str advantage could be over come by the ferals dex alone.

However, look at the mechanics. There is a reason its so cheap to be a feral.

Ferals are very hard to be successful with.

[kamikazi]

Just take a look at the Behrath versus Kotrag log. No point in having high dex, or defenses mastered at all. You'll still get hit all the time. If I roll a character, I won't even bother mastering parry, dodge, two handed and shield block. No point. And I would most likely go for ogre. The huge HP, coupled with regen, high str and ability to wield two handed weapons in one hand, also the ocasional roar that ignores damage makes it a lot more viable. And it also has a "bonus" to weapons, for which no one knew nothing about until just recently. At least I didn't and I've been around for 12-13 years.

[Pali]

Kami, you're being a bit hyperbolic there.  Mastered defenses work better than unmastered ones - there is no question of this - but even they don't stop all attacks.  Kotrag's defenses in that log, while Kotrag isn't blind, stop about two-thirds of Behrath's attacks, and even after being blinded has rounds like this one:

 

Kotrag: 413hp 
Someone's poison scratches him.
You dodge someone's attack.
You dodge someone's attack.
You parry someone's attack.
Someone's life drain misses you.
You dodge someone's attack.
Someone's crush mauls you.
You block someone's attack with your weapon.
You parry someone's attack.
You parry someone's attack.
You parry someone's attack.
You dodge someone's attack.
Someone's claw wounds you.
Someone's claw injures you.
You parry someone's attack.
Your pierce wounds someone.
Someone parries your attack.
Your punch wounds someone.
Your pierce mauls someone.
Your punch mauls someone.
Your pierce wounds someone.
Your tsuki strike MUTILATES someone!

 

Clearly, those defenses aren't doing anything.

[kamikazi]

Clearly Behrath's arent doing anything. That is what I meant. The ninja is using a spear, which the ranger knows and hes using axes, which the ninja does not know. Funny, innit?

[f0xx]

Well that's full study.... if he was falcon eye Behrath would have died instantly instead. Here he got the chance to fight back, and even, almost won.

[Pali]

2 hours ago, kamikazi said:

Clearly Behrath's arent doing anything. That is what I meant. The ninja is using a spear, which the ranger knows and hes using axes, which the ninja does not know. Funny, innit?

More of the ninja's attacks landed, true, which could simply be a matter of hit/dam, the study, or how the RNG happened to come up for the fight.  That said, for most rounds, Behrath was able to block about half of the ninja's attacks.

 

Your pierce wounds Behrath.
Behrath parries your attack.
Your punch misses Behrath.
Behrath dodges your attack.
Your punch wounds Behrath.
Behrath parries your attack.

 

Behrath parries your attack.
Behrath dodges your attack.
Your punch wounds Behrath.
Your pierce mauls Behrath.
Your punch wounds Behrath.
Behrath dodges your attack.

 

Behrath parries your attack.
Your pierce mauls Behrath.
Your punch decimates Behrath!
Behrath parries your attack.
Your punch wounds Behrath.
Behrath parries your attack.

 

You seem to have a habit of treating game issues as grudges, and I think this colors your perception of what is actually being shown.  I know the feeling - I've had plenty of fights where I felt that my defenses weren't doing a thing, but when I actually look back over the logs, I'll see round after round of me taking almost no hits in between those rounds where I took five.

[kamikazi]

You got this all wrong, and I think we derailed the tread enough already. I only hold grudges towards game mechanics. Only gave that log as an example, cause it is clear how ninja lands all his hits blinded, while the ranger isn't. Notice the last few rounds...Things like that should be impossible if you ask me. The ninja should not have been able to stalk him at all, without fighting him and he claims to have a full stalk on him, without fighting. Check the changes logs. Stalk is only supposed to work, if you are directly engaged with your enemy. Just my two cents.

[mya]

5 hours ago, kamikazi said:

Just take a look at the Behrath versus Kotrag log. No point in having high dex, or defenses mastered at all. You'll still get hit all the time. If I roll a character, I won't even bother mastering parry, dodge, two handed and shield block. No point. And I would most likely go for ogre. The huge HP, coupled with regen, high str and ability to wield two handed weapons in one hand, also the ocasional roar that ignores damage makes it a lot more viable. And it also has a "bonus" to weapons, for which no one knew nothing about until just recently. At least I didn't and I've been around for 12-13 years.

Come on, most of us knew of the Ogre damage bonus for 10 years+. Just like we know Fire Giants hit harder with fire weapons.

What we have here is a Feral with 3 defences (Parry, dodge, weapon-block) wielding a spear (defensive weapon) fighting someone who, if I'm not mistaken is dual wielding axes. That means the Ogre has shitty defences and good offences and the Feral has 3 good defences, a shit offense from the spear and two good ofences from the punches + tsuky strike.  Add STR/DEX modifiers from ninja nerve/caltraps/spell/skils and they get the upper hand.

In my opinion the ninja punch from pugil needs a slight tone down in offensiveness. I wish I had more time, ninjas sound so nice in PK atm.

@Ambroas To answer you, since the feral can get a  way to cover his vuln, the answer can only be Feral.

[kamikazi]

@mya that fight is between two ferals...And most of what you said makes no sense at all.

[Pali]

14 minutes ago, kamikazi said:

You got this all wrong, and I think we derailed the tread enough already. I only hold grudges towards game mechanics. Only gave that log as an example, cause it is clear how ninja lands all his hits blinded, while the ranger isn't. Notice the last few rounds...Things like that should be impossible if you ask me. The ninja should not have been able to stalk him at all, without fighting him and he claims to have a full stalk on him, without fighting.

Yes... I said that you seem to have grudges regarding game issues, by which I meant game mechanics (rather than player or character issues).  Sorry, could've been a bit clearer there.  My question is why hold the grudge at all?  It's just going to cloud your mind when thinking or talking about things.  For example, you complain that the ninja shouldn't have been able to stalk him at all without fighting him - but we don't know that they hadn't been fighting previously.  Kotrag could've stalked Behrath in previous encounters and only shown us the last engagement because that was the one that interested him.  Your frustrations on the matter seem to make you assume that there's a problem here, that somehow Kotrag was stalking outside of combat, but in reality we don't have enough information to reach that conclusion.  Thinking through things logically requires a certain detachment, and being angry makes that detachment hard to achieve.

 

Being blinded affects your defenses more than it does your offenses, in my experience.  Against someone with high hitroll, blinding them isn't going to drop their ability to dish out damage that much, but it WILL make it easier for you to bypass their defenses.  Kotrag's defenses dropped immensely after he was blinded, causing him to go from 50ish hp lost per round to 100+ hp lost per round.  One more round of combat and Behrath would've probably won.  Behrath is also dual wielding axes, which means that he is relying on parry, dodge, and dual parry - axes are bad at parrying, and dual parry is far less reliable a defense than the others, so Behrath's melee defenses here are pretty weak.  The ninja, on the other hand, has dodge, parry, and two-handed, with a weapon that parries well - that his defenses served him better is to be expected.  Behrath's weapon setup was pure offense, minimal defense - the ninja took a more balanced approach.

[mya]

2 hours ago, kamikazi said:

@mya that fight is between two ferals...And most of what you said makes no sense at all.

Replace Ogre with Feral and the premises are the same. Look at @Pali post.
The only thing that might be harder to infer is that in my opinion the ninja punch derived from pugil does not have the same offensive bonus of the main weapon.

[sarcon]

5 hours ago, kamikazi said:

@mya that fight is between two ferals...And most of what you said makes no sense at all.

Waaaa? Did you not read what she said? @myra summed it up pretty nice and accurate to me. Kami man, sometimes your arguments are all over the place. You have a voice and you have an opinion, which is good, but you really gotta take a step back and re-read your own post sometimes brother. I think you get heated in conversations sometimes and get blur vision. I personally have liked a handful of your characters so I have no beef, but if you took a second to articulate your point of view, you would be able to get it across much better. Stay focused, stay positive man. 

[Gaunticles]

This might be a excellent time for a suggestion. Can we please make it so haste effects blades and dancing weapon spells?

[Pali]

I think that would be OP, particularly for the dancing blade.  I would love to see haste neutralize the movement penalty from being slowed, since it cancels all of slow's other effects.

[f0xx]

1 hour ago, Gaunticles said:

This might be a excellent time for a suggestion. Can we please make it so haste effects blades and dancing weapon spells?

Why not make a new thread instead of derailing this one even further....

[egreir]

wtb blur potions

[Gaunticles]

7 hours ago, f0xx said:

Why not make a new thread instead of derailing this one even further....

Oh my bad I thought this was offensive output.

[f0xx]

2 hours ago, Gaunticles said:

Oh my bad I thought this was offensive output.

It's a discussion between the offensive output of ogre rangers vs feral rangers.

It is your bad indeed, no need for sarcasm.

[egreir]

10 minutes ago, f0xx said:

It's a discussion between the offensive output of ogre rangers vs feral rangers.

It is your bad indeed, no need for sarcasm.

From the OP " This isn't a feral vs ogre thread "

 

So, now it's YOUR bad.

[f0xx]

It's pretty clear that the OP wanted us to compare the output of feral rangers to ogre rangers.

What is your problem man...

[kamikazi]

Chill pillz, narcoz. Diasepams work wonders, hahaha