Is this new???

[sarcon]

Ok. Let me get this straight. Warriors are able to counter an archer rangers arrows??  What? What is the point in being an archer? Everyone can use missiles scrolls for protections and finally when you think you can fight someone that can't use scrolls they can shoot you back as a counter?? Please someone, anyone tell me the advantage of using an Archer Ranger besides fighting mobs with sleepy arrows to get eq. 

[hotspring monkey]

Old stuff.

[Pali]

Missile scrolls aren't 100% effective against archer rangers - I think it's something like 50% block chance.

[f0xx]

4 hours ago, sarcon said:

Ok. Let me get this straight. Warriors are able to counter an archer rangers arrows??  What? What is the point in being an archer?

And how do you feel about mana shield being able to completely block the damage from malforms? Even full malforms. Fair?

[Kyzarius]

what a sharp come back Foxx! wow you are on the ball!

Wait...wait...you mean all the DK has to do is switch to a physical weapon and then they can tear up the invoker?

oh oh, and invoker is just ONE class. 

but an archer can "switch" nothing to get past a 50% reduction in effectiveness to their arrows on ANY scroll capable class, like 7 of them right?

Then ninja, warrior, other rangers, bards can all shoot back at the archer automatically EVEN when the archer is firing out of their range AND/OR firing faster than they shold be able too.

these are the same, you're right...

[f0xx]

50% effectiveness means they will be landing one shot in two rounds, which is the normal landing rate on non archers. Considering non archers get to land absolutely nothing, being able to land once in two rounds is pretty big if you ask me.

On the other hand, having your pinnacle of power being completely  blocked by mana shield, and thus having to switch to normal physical weapons to "tear them up" is similar? Please mate, I will be very glad to have my malform damage reduced by 50% if I can still use them (even though that is still not a fair comparison).

As for shooting back, I don't agree myself with normal classes being able to shoot back at ranges they can't normally shoot at. Everything else is perfectly fine though.

[Kyzarius]

The 2 to 1 ratio is dependent on  random number generation.  With no streak breaker coded in.  

He shot at, as i am guessing who he is, one of my characters using missile shield and missed 4 times in a row.  

Comparing that to Dk having one bane spell in the entire game is asinine. 

[Anume]

I've enjoyed my archer and was quite successful with them. Being an archer has a lot more advantages than hitting through missile shield.

If you dislike it, chose another lore. I've not had a beastmaster yet, but I bet you the archer is 10 times as fast walking through high level areas to get to boss mobs. If you walk, as compared to teleport to get near, archer and bard are the two fastest classes to get there, the bard maybe slightly faster but then a lot less defensive and offensive once the boss mob is reached. So, if you include killing the boss mob, I'd say archer = bard = fastest two classes here.

The different kind or arrows are also fun in a pk scenario when you want to attrition someone.

[f0xx]

Just because he has missed 4 times in a roll means next to nothing, Kyz. With this same reasoning I can whine that his arrows went through my shield 4 times in a row.

RNG can f* you up sometimes, and it can help you sometimes. Comparing landing rates dependant on RNG to something that does not work, at all (but is supposed to be the most powerful weapon in your arsenal), is asinine if you ask me. Even if it's just one class.

[Zhurong]

Omg, this made me laugh so hard.

 

Let me begin with the archer argument. Archery has been made almost useless unless you wish to be a very prominent Merchant. I've had many archery rangers, and I can say with confidence that the "return fire" from other fired weapons classes is beyond stupid. They can fire 1-2 rooms when I can fire nearly  7-9 away, yet I am still hit with returned fire. I've had an ogre ranger that was nearly killed from the return fire of a bard, with next to no physical combat. Missile shield is fine when it comes to archery, it lessens half of your fired weapons arsenal, but you have an array of arrows that no one else can get. I also feel that the bowyer skill needs to be improved. The created bow just sucks.

 

Now to Foxx, I have zero idea why you even decided to bring up Dark-Knights, Invokers and mana-shield. It should be that way. I will also say to you as I've been told by numerous Immortals here, just because a Dark-Knight can have malforms does not mean that you are supposed to fight with them 100% of the time. Just like warrior lores are not always viable against everyone, or berserker lores. If you require your malform to battle everyone, your doing something wrong. Dark-knights can be very powerful without a malform.

[Erelei]

3 minutes ago, Zhurong said:

Omg, this made me laugh so hard.

 

Let me begin with the archer argument. Archery has been made almost useless unless you wish to be a very prominent Merchant. I've had many archery rangers, and I can say with confidence that the "return fire" from other fired weapons classes is beyond stupid. They can fire 1-2 rooms when I can fire nearly  7-9 away, yet I am still hit with returned fire. I've had an ogre ranger that was nearly killed from the return fire of a bard, with next to no physical combat.

Not a single round of physical combat, and you think it's okay to be able to shoot someone to death? (even though the bard arrows beat you?)

That said, bowyer got an update already. Pretty sure it was detailed in the last couple change logs.

[Zhurong]

Just now, Erelei said:

Not a single round of physical combat, and you think it's okay to be able to shoot someone to death? (even though the bard arrows beat you?)

That said, bowyer got an update already. Pretty sure it was detailed in the last couple change logs.

I didnt say not a single round, I said there was hardly any physical combat, the Bard was running while ensnared. There are plenty of ways of going around being completely shot to death, same thing with dealing with beastmasters. Plenty of areas and paths to take.

Also, hadnt seen that change log, or maybe I read over it. I'll check. And thank you.

[Kyzarius]

ive always thought automated return fire is silly.

they should have to fire back. 

[sarcon]

Fyi, I shoot 7 arrows at someone with missile shield and 0 landed. It's just a little disappointing that Archery is completely useless in a mechanical sense vs PK. If anything, make all the arrows hit,  just have a 60% chance of reducing the damage or something. Like the fun part about being an archer is to be annoying and keep your opponent at arms length. I'm not saying an entire fight should be won from just your arrows, but dam, it's pretty much pointless now. @kysarius nailed it with his points. 

[Ambroas]

Ok this info is pulled from the wiki:

76% of classes get scrolls, 23% get fired weapons, 11% get both.

This means against 3/4 of the playerbase you're going to deal 1/2 damage with the specialty you chose.  You turned down tracking, throwing, an extra pet, paralyze, group herb and pet camo so that you can deal the same amount of damage that normal fired weapon classes deal to NPCs.  Sure at least you get to hurt these classes with your bow but you could've most likely done more with a behemoth that would deal damage and through paralyze also increase your defense and chasing.  You could've thrown some shields and tracked them while they were hurt.  Yeah you get that extra effect BUT first your arrow has to hit so that's 50% of the time, then you have to hope the effect lands.  I'm not sure the % of effects on arrows in pvp but I'm guessing it's not extremely high. 

23% of the playerbase can just fire back at you every time, oh and two of those classes have healing abilities they can use to try to outlast you, those same two also get scrolls, haven't tested it but I'm curious if you fire at a class with a missile scroll up will the scroll block it and they still fire back?  Lucky for you those two are Bards and Ninjas, at least they aren't strong popular classes...

This is horrible IMO and I can't understand why anyone would agree to it.  Unless Archery gets some new OP types of arrows the decision to be one is extremely nerfed.  I really don't care if they can clear a high end area faster, the other choices will clear it eventually get the gear and they'll do better with it once they have it.

As far as a comparison to DK: DK's malform is 100% effective vs 94% of the standard classes and 85% against standard races. Invoker isn't a very popular guild with the players we have, comparing it to a select path that is only 100% effective against Berserkers and Blademasters isn't a very good comparison IMO.  Heck I wouldn't be surprised if one of those two didn't have some way to block arrows.

[Manual Labour]

 

4 minutes ago, Ambroas said:

select path that is only 100% effective against Berserkers and Blademasters isn't a very good comparison IMO.  Heck I wouldn't be surprised if one of those two didn't have some way to block arrows.

one zerk path can ignore arrows, another path can redirect them at the shooter

one blm stance can redirect arrows at the shooter

[Ambroas]

@Manual Labour  Ok so a path that can literally be 100% effective against 0 classes, think this should really be looked into.

[Kyzarius]

Blademaster can use kyousanken and reflect all arrows. 

 

Very good post @Ambroas

[Lloth]

Archers can bypass missile shield, at the very least. 

[f0xx]

2 hours ago, Kyzarius said:

Blademaster can use kyousanken and reflect all arrows. 

 

Very good post @Ambroas

Not a good post at all, especially using blademasters as example, since they have something against every class, not just archers. That's just how the class is made. 

Blademasters also return thrown objects, which means the "throw" skill from tracker is absolutely useless against them (if in certain stance), and they have deathweaver too, which redirects some of the pets' attacks towards your enemy.

That being said, a blademaster wins something and loses something when choosing a stance. If you are using kyosanken against rangers, your damage output goes down and you are giving up other possible benefits from other stances.

 

2 hours ago, Ambroas said:

Ok so a path that can literally be 100% effective against 0 classes, think this should really be looked into.

That's completely untrue.

Mages have protective shield, does this mean all classes with bash/bodyslam should be looked at because they can't use it against them? Just because you can't use some of your abilities against some enemies doesn't mean they need to be looked at. It means that's how balance works. 

[Vaerick]

It seems like a simple solution. Allow classes with counter AND fired weapons to fire back and ONLY if in range of how far they can shoot normally. As for out of range, and counter-classes without fired weapons, let their counter act as missile shield.

As for dk vs manashield- pfft, Crusaders have the same thing, and are much less versatile. So meh to that.

Blms and bards are kinda ridiculous in general imo. Not gonna touch that.

[FatMike]

5 hours ago, f0xx said:

Just because you can't use some of your abilities against some enemies doesn't mean they need to be looked at. It means that's how balance works. 

You talk out of both sides of your mouth. DK malformed not working against invockers.......

[f0xx]

2 hours ago, FatMike said:

You talk out of both sides of your mouth. DK malformed not working against invockers.......

While you do have a point, comparing malforms to bash is not fair. Bash completely shuts down mages. Malforms make you stronger. Half of my deaths on Tkanzhar were against mages/hybrids even though I had full malforms and were able to ignore mana shield.

Also, if you compare archers to normal fired weapons, archers get 50% penetration, while non-archers get shut down completely.

On the other hand, if you compare normal magical weapons vs malforms, they both act the same way against mana shield i.e. completely shut down.

IMO, its not fair for both living weapon types to be completely negated by mana shield.

But then, Zhorung's way of reasoning is fair too - just because you have living weapons doesn't mean you must use them all the time.

So I admit defeat here.

[Mmm Coffee]

missile shield lasts all of 8 hours...unless you're a Savant.  They also cost a lot.  Needler stalk, however, is free

As for the warrior's ability to return arrows, I believe that is only a certain path?

And I'm sure I'm not the only one who would forget to put up missile shield 40% of the time.

[Ambroas]

18 hours ago, f0xx said:

Not a good post at all, especially using blademasters as example, since they have something against every class, not just archers. That's just how the class is made. 

Blademasters also return thrown objects, which means the "throw" skill from tracker is absolutely useless against them (if in certain stance), and they have deathweaver too, which redirects some of the pets' attacks towards your enemy.

That being said, a blademaster wins something and loses something when choosing a stance. If you are using kyosanken against rangers, your damage output goes down and you are giving up other possible benefits from other stances.

 

That's completely untrue.

Mages have protective shield, does this mean all classes with bash/bodyslam should be looked at because they can't use it against them? Just because you can't use some of your abilities against some enemies doesn't mean they need to be looked at. It means that's how balance works. 

Maybe you didn't read my first post, I didn't compare just blademasters I gave the percentages of classes that can cut down archers effectiveness.  Literally EVERY class has something they can do against it, what other path in the game can say that?  Your first comparison was malform vs Invoker, your weapon doesn't work against one single class in the game and you can use another.  The second is protective shield which 5 base classes get or 29%.  Oh and berserkers can break through it so it can go down but my point here is neither of the classes Warrior or Berserker specialize in bash/bodyslam.  You didn't select it as a lore and turn down other options or choose it as a rage path.  It's a skill that you're simply given and it's effective against 71% of the classes and highly effective against races smaller than you.

Look at archer and tell me the reasons you'd choose it, sure there are some I can think of: feral and fire giant melees.  The vuln arrows are the only ones you can 100% rely on so even if they fire back at you past their range you'll be dealing better damage against them.

If you truly feel this is balanced fine, let's make scrolls that block 50% of bash attempts and give classes without the scroll skill the ability to trip you every time you bash them for equal damage and lag.  Let's make scrolls that block 50% of your malform abilities and give melees the ability to return them against you because that's what archers look at.  You choose a path to specialize in and turn down options for it and your end result is simply a highly nerfed choice in almost every situation compared to the others.  Yes your arrows may penetrate every round or they may get blocked every round, but in the case that both sides of the pk explained earlier 7 arrow shots were all blocked.  Please name other focus paths that can say their pk style can be negated that much by a simple scroll.

I'm not saying your arguement is just completely invalid but the examples you're giving don't truly compare because in both cases only a small portion of the playerbase can stop the skills named.  As I've said literally EVERY class has something to negate the benefits of going archer in their hands.

This is just my opinion: allow the scroll to block 25% of the damage from archers and fired weapon classes can only return fire if they're in their range and not reloading.