Lloth's Community Corner

[Lloth]

Greetings, Aabahran!

In light of some recent threads, and after a wonderful series of suggestions (even if we disagree on whether staff has a purpose in posting "fun" comments) from @Celerity I have decided to create a thread to sort of serve as a community get-together, and offer to speak directly to you all, as an immortal. I should go ahead and prelude this all by clarifying that this is strictly from me to all of you. I do not speak for the immortal collective. If the other immortals do decide to post and participate, that is their decision, and shouldn't be assumed that they are taking a permanent part. This is something I have decided to do for you guys.

Next up on the plate, I wanted to detail the purpose of this thread. It's really simple, actually. Everything. I want this to be the central thread for coming together as a community and just... talking. It is also where I am reviving something Volgathras used to do back when we had a chat bar. Every now and again, I will open the floor to all of you to ask a question. I will answer that question in a timely fashion (I am very active and log in at least 5-6 times per day). If I don't have the answer, I will get it. If I can't discuss the answer for any reason, I will let you know why. I like transparency, however we can't discuss everything we discuss in the immortal forums for a multitude of reasons that I am sure would bore you all to talk about.

This is also where I will recognize a member for their contributions to the forum and community each Friday, barring any personal or professional event that takes me away from the forum. I haven't worked out any kind of reward system, outside the recognition, but I am sure I can think of something before long.

I will also recognize one PK and one RP log each week. When submitting RP logs to the Character RP forum, just note that you want to have the log considered for this recognition, and I will keep a note of it. The same goes for any PK logs.

I also would like to recognize the best idea of the month on the last day of the month. Selection does not mean that your idea will be implemented (there is a lot of boring discussion that happens about that stuff in the immortal forum, and for bigger or more controversial suggestions it may take months before we have an implementation plan - and often times they never reach implementation as they are decided against). What it does mean is that myself, and the community as a whole, enjoyed the suggestion and the discussion revolving around it.

I will also periodically recognize the most improved members of our community. The members that have perhaps started in negative places, but put hard work and determination into bettering their image. It is certainly important to remind ourselves that we aren't always perfect (except me... jk), but we can each try just a little harder to be that much better. Before long, we can all move past the anchors we drag along today.

At this time, I would like to open the floor to all of you. Every opinion is valuable (although those that defeat the spirit of this thread or break forum rules are subject to be edited or hidden). Let me know how you guys feel about something like this. The time frames on recognition are largely arbitrary right now, so those may be subject to change. If they do, I will post a notification reply and edit the correction into this post.

Let's discuss!

[Celerity]

My suggestion is to make players opt OUT of logs rather than in. You'll get a much larger pool that way. As long as you use some discretion, even perhaps asking for authorization from the player before posting if in doubt, this will be the better arrangement in the long run. Another suggestion is to instead of talking about most improved or whatnot community member, maybe it would be simpler to choose a community member and talk about them (of which the theme may be most improved, but I wouldn't limit myself to that). I'd also encourage players to give some input too, sharing their memories or other (positive) experiences.

I'll also bite for the first question (which is about you!--if this constitutes an 'open' time):
What made you go with Lloth as your imm character? Lloth can be considered a well-known stock character. What are your feelings about using stock materials in the game and what is unique or interesting about your personal adaptation of Lloth?

[Lloth]

I chose Lloth because Naruthiron was taken.

Actually, I chose because I am absolutely enamored with drow RP. It's true, Lloth being a stock character presents a unique challenge (especially with the basis of this iteration's Lloth fading from memory) of playing a character that stays true to the core aspect of such a well defined character while still allowing for growth and an air of unpredictability that is so vital to have as an immortal.

As many have already figured out and been told - this Lloth is an usurper of the name. She tricked the previous Lloth into a confrontation and was able to separate the dominant soul of the Old Lloth from the mass of souls that bound her demonic form together. This New Lloth siphoned away a great deal of the Old Lloth's power, but not all of it. The Old Lloth still seeks her revenge on the New Lloth, as well as the entire obliteration of Aabahran, as restitution for serving as the Betrayer's plane of Origin.

This New Lloth (The Betrayer) absolutely despises chaos demons. She sees them as sloppy copies of an imperfect Prince (She and Volgathras have some history...) and refuses to grant them her favor. This presents a very unique challenge as well, as in Volgathras' absence I have taken over demon applications. Since then, I have made two demons, Terrokant and Vaelrasa. Both of them were tasked with destroying the Prince's followers. And while these demons are largely the same (mechanically the same in game, outside the RP) as chaos demons, they are a means to an end. Lloth has something in store for Aabahran. What that is remains to be seen, but one can certainly expect it to be terrifying and dangerous. (Don't read this as changes to Demon. There are no changes slated.)

As for my opinion of using stock materials in game... My original idea was to completely destroy Lloth, and have my character be the one to step in and take over. That was shot down. I don't much like pulling from other sources in this manner. I think Aabahran's characters are compelling enough to not need to tie them in to more well-known works. If it were up to me, all of these references would be gone, and Aabahran would be its own complete and original world.

[Fool_Hardy]

You did say we could talk about anything...

What does everyone think of the Idea of developing something special for the drow purebloodds?

Perhaps a series of quests to gather drow only items and or skills?

Well, its a start.

[Lloth]

There is a drow racial questline that Naruthiron started. It's not all fleshed out, but finishing it is on my list of things to do. Drow females have one set of quests, drow males have another set.

[Manual Labour]

Since we can discuss anything. I would like to hear your opinion on Wimpy and if you think it is balanced and why.

[Kyzarius]

Just now, Manual Labour said:

Since we can discuss anything. I would like to hear your opinion on Wimpy and if you think it is balanced and why.

oh good god no...no not here...not like this..

[Manual Labour]

I am genuinely curious to hear what Lloth thinks about this.

I didn't ask for your opinion Kyz, we already know where you stand. I also didn't re-iterate my opinion, we know where I stand.

Not looking to debate the topic either, just wanna hear other opinions.

[Lloth]

To remind everyone now... This is my opinion, and I do not speak for the immortal staff.

I think wimpy should only be available to Journeyman and/or Smurf. I think that it is abused too often and too easily in its current iteration. 

The core reason for having wimpy is to help new players who have not yet learned when to identify how and when they are losing. We use it for something else entirely, now. Pretty lame.

[Kyzarius]

so what about double murder rounds? 

 

and double autoassist rounds from pets? 

 

the classes with the lowest hp pools and weakest defenses are constantly destroyed by these two mechanics.  When you lose 50% of your hp through sanc, without the melee having to even blind you. 

[Manual Labour]

6 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

so what about double murder rounds? 

This is not guaranteed to happen, wimpy works 100% of the time.

6 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

and double autoassist rounds from pets?

This is not guaranteed to happen, the majority of melees also don't have pets, wimpy works 100% of the time.

7 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

the classes with the lowest hp pools and weakest defenses are constantly destroyed by these two mechanics.  When you lose 50% of your hp through sanc, without the melee having to even blind you. 

Non ogre melees have as little HP as most CCs or less from what I have seen lately.

Clerics and Battlemages have good defenses, invokers have firestorm, really it is only psi's and maybe lich/necro (i havent played them enough to know) that have a problem with opening rounds?

"constantly being destroyed by these two mechanics" is a gross overstatement.

[Kyzarius]

17 minutes ago, Manual Labour said:

I am genuinely curious to hear what Lloth thinks about this.

I didn't ask for your opinion [Manual Labor], we already know where you stand. I also didn't re-iterate my opinion, we know where I stand.

Not looking to debate the topic either, just wanna hear other opinions.

 

[Manual Labour]

@kyz if you remove your outburst that came after Lloth stated their opinion then I will gladly remove my reply.

[Lloth]

Guys, please keep in spirit of the post. No need to argue, we're all friends here.

As to double rounds... Not so concerned. IMHO, the ones that suffer most from them are the ones who struggle with prolonged combat, since it does make it that much more deadly to stick around for that extra round they might need for their hit and run tactics.

Double rounding is luck/timing, so I don't really see an issue with it. Perhaps, though it may be best to limit the number of attacks from each character/mob during rounds (so that you dont get hit like 18 times just because somebody timed a murder command well).

[Zavero]

Well, let's wait for Lloth to respond to Kyz instead of arguing. I'm interested to know because this is obviously a hot topic for debate.

Edit: oops replied right before my post.

[Kyzarius]

you keep brushing this aside. when there is an inherent inbalance.

1. melee just have to engage, their stats win the battle.
   1. Power creep with more and more hit gear available makes these stats MUCH easier to reach. 
      1. lately you dont even have to be blinded as a caster, cleric, shaman, etc.  to take 100+ damage a round.
      2. the same caster has to try to dispel to equal that damage. 
         1. caster also has to maintain a series of spells or they get locked down and die. 
2. we JUST had pali lay out some very good comparisons between the effort a Battlemage has to maintain to  just stay relevant VS a melee.
3. those classes with low hp pools you mentioned disregard the second statement, weak defenses
4. autoassist bet double rounds happens nearly every time.
5. murder rounds happen enough to be a strat for melees, flee murder, flee murder.  

 

The game is tilted towards melee.  They require little strategy within battle itself.  They get their damage front loaded and heavy.  used to be they had to dirt kick you to deliver pain, but with the power creep that is not even necessary anymore. 

Wimpy allows a caster to exit battle when not lagged.  With shield block, and caster quality parry being so unreliable you cant tell when your defenses are going to just tank on you.  I will ge t incoming rounds of 45, 60, then BAM 180.  

500- 600 ac doesnt seem to matter much.  The only thing that really helps is to have massive AC, AND a cabal skill that reduces incoming damage. 

 

I sit online with a solid caster, able to fight melees and win consistently.  And some of the other more veteran players can do so.  But its not about us.  It is people who are not as knowledgeable just get completely creamed.  I watched 3 Savants, one of them a Q, do everything right but still stand really no chance at all.  While their opponent just has to chase and murder while maintaining sanc. 

[Manual Labour]

Hard not to respond to Kyz when he says things that aren't true or are very misleading to try and prove a false point.

 

edit: the whole point of playing melee characters is to outdamage mages in combat with their stats alone.

now you are whining that casters need to dispel to to do more damage? what next? will you cry that mages have to cast spells in general to do damage?...

[Kyzarius]

ya know, I collect data, and comment on it.  I do not enjoy the personal assault I get every-time for merely making an argument based on my observations. 

[hotspring monkey]

@Lloth Where am I? Am I  still exists?!

 

[Lloth]

This thread is not for arguing. Let's try and keep that mentality for at least 24 hours, please.

@hotspring monkey you are in Purgatory, and I am your Jailer.

Slip me some booze and maybe I won't eat your soul. Probably.

[Kyzarius]

The issue is in the end not wimpy, or even double rounds. Imho. 

 

It is the scaling stats and the power creep on gear. 

We have scaling combat stats in HP, AC, Saves, HIT, and Dam that directly influence the outcome of a battle.  

Melee characters have ALWAYS been able to eventually hit a point in HIT/DAM where they nullify completely a casters defenses, while at the same time maintaining saves that make them extremely defensible VS the casters offense.  It just used to require the best gear in the game.  So only one or two could reach that point.  and sometimes the gear would be diversified across so many players that even less were capable of doing so. 

Casters can do this too of course with their offense using +spell level gear.  However that is still only obtainable in the highest echelons of caster gear available.  Mask of ultimate evil, dragonbone, ethereal radiance, the lenses.  etc etc.  AC and HP do help on the defensive side.  But against a melee that has reached that golden level of hit/dam, the AC and HP really do not amount to much.  So their only avenue used to be against a "decked" melee, to have +spell level gear and be in a sub-cabal that provides fixed damage reduction OR automatic output.

 

Now though things have shifted.  spell level gear is still locked in the higher tiers.  While hit/dam is abundant.  Saves are abundant.  So many more melees are able to hit that golden level of offense while maintaining above average spell resistance.  Once you reach that golden level of melee output, negating a casters defenses even without using dirt, while your saves make them have to try over and over and over just to land a single mal, the balance of the game is subverted. 

There is nothing a caster can do at this point, unless they happen to be the one with the + spell level gear AND cabal skills/resistances that provide fixed reduction.  They just get creamed.  This is why our "caster" base right now consists of just a few folks who know/have the spell gear, OR take advantage of niche cabal components to get ahead. 

a solution? 

Casters need a scaling stat that can compete with the higher hit/dam and saves. 

[Kyzarius]

sorry i posted that at the same time you did @Lloth

 

[Manual Labour]

@kyz Thank you for finally making a rational argument

I agree with most of what you said there, only disagreement is that the power creep only helps melees.

Right now some people are just too decked, melee or cc the uber decked just roll over the average player.

Maybe in the case of super decked vs super decked the melee has a slight edge? That is probably true but as soon as the CC lands some key spells that can be reversed.

[Lloth]

I will outline my plans for equipment, building, and crunching numbers in the coming weeks. There is a lot of data to parse through, and a lot of considerations to make. My main objective as builder, though, is to standardize equipment. That is an immense challenge, since Aabahran's areas are a hodgepodge of input from dozens of builders, an each of them have wildly varying ideas of not only how to balance equipment, but also how equipment should even be designed in the first place.

I have long been an advocate of putting in more measures to protect against powercreep. The set items that were being worked on (and still are! Doing some remaking, then rigorous testing) were my ideas, and I am hoping that you guys end up liking the shift away from raw numbers as much as I do.

[Celerity]

See? In just a few hours, we have @Manual Labour and @Kyzarius agreeing, and a load of interesting knowledge presented. Already a success!