Lloth's Community Corner

[Lloth]

In my opinion...

Staff (including myself) needs to work on being more visible when we're online. 

Players (including myself) need to work on how quickly we jump to conclusions.

[Kyzarius]

[Aulian]

We seem to land on that "go wild" square quite often to be fair.

[Aulian]

So Lloth here's one for you. 

Do you think our current system of cabal induction and the speed/requirements of promotions are too stringent? 

Should we be giving away more Elders / Leaders? (This seems to be a topic of debate lately.)

 

[English lad]

Hi Lloth - Great thread and idea in general btw.

Do you (as a player or an Immortal) have any thoughts on how FL can support an international player-base.

I'll admit that this question is obviously quite focused on my own situation (clue is in the name) but I think it is also important for a number of other people.

10 years ago when i started playing here I thought nothing of staying up till 2 am (GMT) to be around when things actually started happening.  At 34 years young, with a 55 hour a week job and a 2 year old Son this isn't as realistic for me.  I'd love to be involved, but i'm starting to think that it just isn't going to happen - as the 2 hours or so that I can play in tend to be rather dead.  I've also seen comments regarding problems from a language aspect - which doesn't affect me - but is also an interesting problem.

As the Mudding Community as a whole shrinks, I think this is going to be a problem that a lot of Muds face, and I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[Zoichan]

Personally, I have never had any issues other than minor things in a description in regards to non native English speakers. I've never read an app and said 'He obviously doesn't speak english, denied.' or in reading notes 'Oh that guy can't speak English very well, he's not getting Elder.' It's not even part of our process in approving things. Effort is just about 98% of the requirements for any promotion/qclass/qrace/ect.

[Lloth]

I may be biased, as I run a cabal...

But I think requirements for entrance are fine. None of them are all that hard. The most time consuming is what, WM with 15 clan quests? I can get that done while ranking/training, no sweat. The hardest ones involve getting a kill, but for most people that's a non-issue. Usually, people waiting to get a kill only wait for a few days at most. 

E/L should never be "given away". Even if your cabal is trying to rebound, those positions need to be earned through persistent dedication. Those positions have way too much influence to just be handouts.

 

As to differing playtimes, that is certainly a unique struggle. It can be hard to play alone, or mostly alone, most of your time. Ideally, I will be able to figure out a way to dynamically revamp old areas and build new areas that have a dynamic feel and flow, so that they can be made very unique for each character. That's a whole lot of work, though, so I can't say to expect it soon. Once a building team is fully spun up and refined, it is something I want to explore.

I've never found language to be a real barrier. For descriptions, we tend to be more stringent on proper spelling and sentence structure, but in RP it's never really mattered to me. If somebody doesn't know what a word means, they are welcome to ask. If they do not know how to phrase something, they can ask. There are tools and resources available for translation. I think it's easier for some to put everything on "English isn't my first language" than it is to say "I don't want to put in that much effort" - and we can certainly tell. I think people would be surprised to find out how many players here do not speak English as a first or even primary language.

[Lloth]

Short week this week, but it is Monday, so let's do some recognition!

I would like to recognize @Celerity for proposing the ideas that spurned this thread, and for helping to build the atmosphere as it started.

I also want to recognize @crackala for submitting his PK log and giving the honest effort to learn from his mistakes. It takes a level-headed player to be introspective when taking a loss, and I think he will improve a great deal for it.

I didn't see any RP logs that I got permission to share. If I missed yours, shoot me a message!

[sarcon]

Here is another question. Wel, kind of a loaded question but I would like your perspective. Obviously there are a million variables but nonetheless, let's have at it. 

What would you define as putting in time on a character? 

How many hours should it take to receive T, E, L etc? 

How many hours should it take to receive QClass/QRace?

How many journals entry's/RP logs/notes should each of the above questions require on average?

 

[f0xx]

Those questions are like asking "How many miles do I need to run to go from 120 kilos to 80".

It's  not just one variable. You need more than time for cabal ranks/Qstuff and when it comes to RP, quality is more important than. quantity.

[sarcon]

1 hour ago, f0xx said:

Those questions are like asking "How many miles do I need to run to go from 120 kilos to 80".

It's  not just one variable. You need more than time for cabal ranks/Qstuff and when it comes to RP, quality is more important than. quantity.

 

I 100% agree, hence why it's a loaded question. I'm just curious to get Loths overall perspective on those variables. 

[Celerity]

Short essay on good RP:

The question of how much time a player needs isn't typically very important because time is actually secondary to the three big RP variables: content, visibility, and quality.

Writing a journal is an example of content, also known as active RP (strong RP). Emoting, writing, and talking are all the big ways to do produce content in FL. Activities that incorporate all three methods are the most rewarded (often this is creating/participating in a plot). Killing cabal enemies, gathering resources, and most other things are not good signs of activity or content for RP. Yes, the player is acting out the motivations of their character, but that is in the background and at best implied, not obvious. This is known as passive/weak RP.

The second variable is visibility. A player has to make sure that their content is noticed. It is extremely important for a player's activity to be known to the staff (invisible content is not measured activity in terms of progress towards a staff-granted achievement). This is why the staff stresses logs and documentation in general. Even for non-achievement seekers, visibility is important as it is how your RP contributes to the other players of the game.

The third big variable to good RP is quality. A character can have a ton of visible content but if it is very low quality (or even negative), it is going to have a negligible (or negative) effect. Negative quality would be things that actually detract from the game atmosphere (OOC actions or content that frustrates other players). Lucky for us, FL has a very low minimum standard of RP quality, so if you are doing anything positive, it will probably eventually work out.

RP is measured over time. If a character has more hours, they have more opportunities to contribute content. However, a short-lived character can produce a lot more RP than an incredibly long-lived one. Every player generates content at a different rate and quality. Remember, it also has to be noticed to be a contribution to the game (as opposed to personal enjoyment).

So the longer a character is around, the more opportunity for development and engagement they have. That said, efficiency in producing RP is mostly on the player. Some players can produce a lot of high quality RP content in a very short time, others produce more moderately over a longer period to get to the same place. Others still do their RP privately or even internally (no output to the MUD), so much of it does not get noticed.

Those players who produce RP content moderately/weakly over a short period (or produce invisibly) have a tough task because it is difficult for them to hit the achievement threshold during their character's lifespan. In this case, those players have a number of options:

1. Improve the content of their RP (quality/skill)

2. Increase amount of content produced (quantity/effort)

3. Increase the visibility of content produced (involve more people/document)

Some players are very good at one or more of these. Ideally, all players should strive to improve all three as there is no ceiling on RP production, but they are especially important for players who want to efficiently reach high level achievements (recognition/leader/etc). It is therefore mostly up to each individual player to determine how much time it takes for their character to achieve their goals.

If a player produces a lot of highly visible, high quality content, but haven't achieved their goal yet, only then is time a concern. Even then, it is almost certainly a measure of consistency (production over time) for staff verification of the player's output, not raw hours. The minimum raw hours needed for a particular achievement is highly dependent on the player's production in addition to the availability and individual standards for the staff verification portion, so even rough estimates are misleading and inaccurate.

The staff portion is pretty negligible (it typically doesn't take long to verify and the staff encourages to inquire politely if a player suspects this to be the problem), so most of the investment is up to the player. How long that takes depends on that particular character's production of RP content. That is the answer to the original question.

 

[egreir]

9 hours ago, Celerity said:

Short essay on good RP:

The question of how much time a player needs isn't typically very important because time is actually secondary to the three big RP variables: content, visibility, and quality.

Writing a journal is an example of content, also known as active RP (strong RP). Emoting, writing, and talking are all the big ways to do produce content in FL. Activities that incorporate all three methods are the most rewarded (often this is creating/participating in a plot). Killing cabal enemies, gathering resources, and most other things are not good signs of activity or content for RP. Yes, the player is acting out the motivations of their character, but that is in the background and at best implied, not obvious. This is known as passive/weak RP.

The second variable is visibility. A player has to make sure that their content is noticed. It is extremely important for a player's activity to be known to the staff (invisible content is not measured activity in terms of progress towards a staff-granted achievement). This is why the staff stresses logs and documentation in general. Even for non-achievement seekers, visibility is important as it is how your RP contributes to the other players of the game.

The third big variable to good RP is quality. A character can have a ton of visible content but if it is very low quality (or even negative), it is going to have a negligible (or negative) effect. Negative quality would be things that actually detract from the game atmosphere (OOC actions or content that frustrates other players). Lucky for us, FL has a very low minimum standard of RP quality, so if you are doing anything positive, it will probably eventually work out.

RP is measured over time. If a character has more hours, they have more opportunities to contribute content. However, a short-lived character can produce a lot more RP than an incredibly long-lived one. Every player generates content at a different rate and quality. Remember, it also has to be noticed to be a contribution to the game (as opposed to personal enjoyment).

So the longer a character is around, the more opportunity for development and engagement they have. That said, efficiency in producing RP is mostly on the player. Some players can produce a lot of high quality RP content in a very short time, others produce more moderately over a longer period to get to the same place. Others still do their RP privately or even internally (no output to the MUD), so much of it does not get noticed.

Those players who produce RP content moderately/weakly over a short period (or produce invisibly) have a tough task because it is difficult for them to hit the achievement threshold during their character's lifespan. In this case, those players have a number of options:

1. Improve the content of their RP (quality/skill)

2. Increase amount of content produced (quantity/effort)

3. Increase the visibility of content produced (involve more people/document)

Some players are very good at one or more of these. Ideally, all players should strive to improve all three as there is no ceiling on RP production, but they are especially important for players who want to efficiently reach high level achievements (recognition/leader/etc). It is therefore mostly up to each individual player to determine how much time it takes for their character to achieve their goals.

If a player produces a lot of highly visible, high quality content, but haven't achieved their goal yet, only then is time a concern. Even then, it is almost certainly a measure of consistency (production over time) for staff verification of the player's output, not raw hours. The minimum raw hours needed for a particular achievement is highly dependent on the player's production in addition to the availability and individual standards for the staff verification portion, so even rough estimates are misleading and inaccurate.

The staff portion is pretty negligible (it typically doesn't take long to verify and the staff encourages to inquire politely if a player suspects this to be the problem), so most of the investment is up to the player. How long that takes depends on that particular character's production of RP content. That is the answer to the original question.

 

Whatd you do tag me then untag me? Lol

[Ulmusdorn]

To add to @Celerity a couple of points:

1. Introspective RP is so much stronger then extrospective RP in so many cases. 
    a. Describing an event is no where near as powerful as RPing how that event has made you feel, grow, react... The most powerful RP I've ever seen can often be when a character has a situation effect them as realistically as possible and normally for the negative (much of life = negative). Dying, a friend dying. A shout out to Lelleiala for some incredible RP that saw her demoted, switched cabal paths etc and through RP dealt with the issue and has been reborn stronger. Acele has some incredible RP. A few short emote and lines of "says" and she literally radiates her internal feelings. I am sure Karishin can attest to this.

2. Longevity and influence in regards to RP
    a. Longevity - No one is going to listen to someone who has been at 50 for 2 days. Their opinion isn't as respected. But if you're a well known person of the lands your say has a bit more go. If you're part of a cabal or have had an active opinion with other players which adds to your reputation and are known for thinking a certain way - this all helps.
    b. Influence - external influence (also has heavy reliance on reputation) on other characters is paramount to 'successful RP' with others. This is normally helped by someone who is feared or has an established role in the lands. Influence is easier to have if you have PK prowess (like Morchial for example was able to manipulate so many people because he was also feared) but can be achieved through constant and prolonged RP. 

 

Azraek is a great example of how the building blocks for excellent longevity and influence start at char creation. This player has put an ENORMOUS amount of work into the character and a lot of it before they were even within 50 pk range.

[Lloth]

15 hours ago, sarcon said:

Here is another question. Wel, kind of a loaded question but I would like your perspective. Obviously there are a million variables but nonetheless, let's have at it. 

What would you define as putting in time on a character? 

How many hours should it take to receive T, E, L etc? 

How many hours should it take to receive QClass/QRace?

How many journals entry's/RP logs/notes should each of the above questions require on average?

 

To me, putting time into a character means the time spent actively roleplaying and advancing either your character, or by proxy another character, or a plot of some type. PKing/Cabal Duties/Consumable farming/Etc. are all things I personally classify as putting time into the game. That's the thing a lot of people don't make a distinction on that they should, and it leads to them feeling they are getting nowhere, that we play favorites (we don't), or we are out to stifle them (we're not). 

 

I do not use hours, outside the automated requirements, to promote. I take RP, PK, and consistency into account. 

 

QClass/QRace hour requirements are posted, I believe, but in order to submit an application you need at least 25 hours. This is in place to enforce a sense of investment and promised longevity. Added bonus of encouraging a hefty amount of roleplaying while you wait to meet the requirements.

 

None of the above require, necessarily, any journals/logs/notes. They require a history/purpose/personality, and they must meet and maintain an RP minimum. Outside of the requirements listed, how you garner RP points is entirely up to you. 

[Aulian]

12 minutes ago, Lloth said:

PKing/Cabal Duties/Consumable farming/Etc. are all things I personally classify as putting time into the game. That's the thing a lot of people don't make a distinction on that they should, and it leads to them feeling they are getting nowhere, that we play favorites (we don't), or we are out to stifle them (we're not). 

 

I think this is a great comment. Being around isn't the same as being awesome.

[Fool_Hardy]

I agree with so much of this.

However, I would like to play the devil's advocate here. Time is a precious unnatural resource to many players.

While I applaud that people recognize the difference between character growth (read as exploring, ranking, and RPing, and personal growth (read as time spent alone in game for personal reasons farming, questing, ext.), it seems a treacherous path to belittle any hours that a player has invested in Aabahran.

Perhaps the community should consider some sort of boon for simple time served. People get rewarded for good RP, and good PK, perhaps we should look into the idea of rewarding longevity. Perhaps a gift from an immortal at one threshold, or time served quest lines?

Time is nonrefundable, while I agree with the above opinions, I would never wish one of my fellow players to regret the Time they spend in Aabahran.

[Lloth]

It's not a belittlement, it is simply a distinction. 

Game hours and character hours. You should not get character rewards for game hours, nor should you get game hours for character hours. I won't skip any cabal promotion time requirements (so if when you type cabal promo and it says you have hours left... don't expect me to promote you no matter how stellar your RP/involvement is). 

Both are important for the whole-player concept, but it is important to properly separate them.

[Kyzarius]

51 minutes ago, Lloth said:

Game hours and character hours. You should not get character rewards for game hours, nor should you get game hours for character hours. I won't skip any cabal promotion time requirements (so if when you type cabal promo and it says you have hours left... don't expect me to promote you no matter how stellar your RP/involvement is). 

Wow that's lame.  I've gotten those in the past, from Anume I believe while fighting multiple Knights while in Nexus, and it was always a wonderful boon to not have to wait 10 hours just to get a promo.

You know most new games don't even take that long to beat.  People just find ways to idle in game so they can burn through them.  

The sheer amount of time needed to accomplish some things is obscene in FL.  I would say it is the number one contributor to a shrinking pbase. 

I like to think I am in the category of people who can RP quite well.  When I put some effort in I always get the q, the E or the L.  The part I hate is sitting there for 35 hours, or 20 hours, or however many hours.  

Getting a remort Qclass these days for example is 5 hours of leveling, 2-3 hours of RP effort spread out over 28 hours of waiting to put in your application.  So you do the RP, and do the leveling, then you play League of Legends with the mud in the background so as not to go brain dead.  It is that last part, that time gate keeping, that is just so off putting. 

The game just isn't THAT entertaining for most to engage for such massive time sinks.  

[Lloth]

I have never agreed with the notion that you should be able to skip from 0-50 and get E within a month. 

There are many, many ways to reward instances like you mentioned, a skip in time should not be it. That's just my opinion. Others are free to have theirs, and act on them. 

If you're consistently fighting multiple people in my cabal, and exhibiting good RP, expect a much faster promotion rate once you meet the hour requirements. There are 3 factors to promotions, in my opinion. Dedication. RP. Consistency. Dedication and RP will get you into the cabal. Consistency will get you to V. Only the application of all 3 will get you T+ (in my cabal). 

As I tell everyone in my cabal... I expect more of my cabal members than I do of members of any other cabal. I am sure each other Immortal feels the same way about their cabal members. Both IC and OOC.

[Kyzarius]

See people are dedicated to their jobs, their families.  Demanding dedication in a game? please.  A game is supposed to be fun, not hours and hours of grind trying to please someone elses standards. 

 

Im not after you in-particular.  I believe I speak for a lot of the pbase though. 

[Erelei]

We've reduced a lot of the time it takes to rank up, and get what people want.

The side effect to this however is very short lived characters, and very open-ended plots that never end because players stop playing due to lack of interest because they finished the end game in their first three hours after rolling their character.

I'm hesitant to make it that much easier. I don't want this to become a God Wars Mud. I want your character to mean something. And so far, it's unfortunately taking the route of not meaning much, since you can simply delete your current now, and have a new pinnacle in record time in the next day or so.

 

[Kyzarius]

That is a very fair point. 

I have noticed a lot of people roll up to 50 and delete.  

Though I also notice a slew of people who get to 50, V, get bored and then do something else.

 

 

[Erelei]

Generally, these people aren't doing anything but 'sitting' at V, at 50, doing nothing but being idle. Journals and notes, and PK change this. Many players don't sit there and wait when they do all they can to advance their purpose.

And when someone does get what they want plus some in record time, then the rest of the player base (well, some, excuse me) complain that they got it too fast. But.. we're here arguing that it should be the norm.

It can happen. Just submit RP logs, write journals, PK, and become your character. You'll get what you want in record time.

[Lloth]

9 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

See people are dedicated to their jobs, their families.  Demanding dedication in a game? please.  A game is supposed to be fun, not hours and hours of grind trying to please someone elses standards. 

 

Im not after you in-particular.  I believe I speak for a lot of the pbase though. 

This is awkward.... Time is the consistency aspect of promotions. Dedication is clan quests (pre-cabal), armies when applicable, and sticking in against the odds. RP is self-explanatory.

Plenty of people have more than enough hours to get the T. But when you look at how they spend those hours... it's sitting at the cabals commanding armies, farming consumables, etc. - Not promote-worthy investment.

That is what I am trying to articulate. If you don't use your time in a manner conducive to getting the promotion (the other 2 factors), then it's not a problem of being 'held back', but rather a notion than time is the only required investment.