November 9 2016

[FatMike]

I do not need to look up who all has private servers, she did and what everybody else does(if they send classified info using said private server)is illegal also. I'm also not going to ever forget the US citizen, the ambassador to the county that was drug naked through the streets after being brutalized for the world to see, nor am I going to forget the others that lost their lives due to inaction, nor am I going to foget the foreign donations to her foundation from countries that are directly opposite her "supposed" values ie LGBT/Saudi Arabia. Nor am I going to forget the foreign donations to the super-pac that supports her campaign. She is a bad person, all around, and there is no getting around it. The corruption is so deep and ingrained in her that it will only spill over if she gets in the Oval Office.

[FatMike]

38 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

well, she didn't break federal law.  So not the end.  You see what I did there, I went with the consensus of the investigating authority. 

 

By the way, look up who all has had private servers.  

The consensus of the investigation. I wonder how many wrongfully imprisoned people get our of jail/prison wish everyone had just gone with the consensus of the investigation? 

[FatMike]

Let me apologize to everyone, I am getting way to fired up about this. I shouldn't have started a political conversation nor should I have responded to anything in one, nor will I continue. 

 

To the staff, please lock this before my head explodes.

[f0xx]

What I find ironical in this whole situation is how Hilary blames Putin for trying to influence the politics of USA.

If he wanted to do that, he would have donated to her organization

Also saying Hilary has better has "progressive" foreign affairs, and she will improve the pooling of wealth in your country?

Come on man...

 

[Kyzarius]

"come on man" is not an argument.

 

and yes, her current proposed tax plan WILL combat the pooling of wealth.  You can read it, and independent economists agree.  She intends to raise taxes on the upper 1% and people who make over 250k a year while relieving student loan debt. 

And yes as Secretary of State she did a very good job of managing foreign affairs, I would not expect it to change. 

 

I respect you, but you are just echoing rhetorical propaganda.  With no real facts presented at all.  Its like all your saying is, its Hilary, CORRUPT, hate her, must smash, must mock. 

[Gaunticles]

I just want to know whose actually voting trump this year?

I get it nobody likes either candidate but who is really going to vote trump? 

[mya]

Probably 50%+ of your fellow citizens.

I would prefer US with Trump than Us with Hillary "Puppet" Clinton.
At least Trump is an unknown, Hillary is WW3 kick start.

For much Trump has of bad he at least appears to be his own man.
Clinton is totally the puppet of someone cabal.  A cabal who can direct/control our European TV channels. Our UE system may be a bit shaddy with strange stuff like Barroso, Angela Merkel and all the refugees propaganda. But at least they don't control our voting system or all our Premiers.

I can't understand how US citizens allowed votes to be counted electronically. That' is like opening the door to massive voting fraud. At least with paper votes, to rig a whole election you need to corrupt thousands of people to have a chance.

[Gaunticles]

I don't know why you think Trump is unknown, he has just as much of a past as Hillary. Trump isn't a unknown hero, he has record of  scandal and dirt that surpasses Hillary. 

Does trump come across as someone who really cares about united states or the world at large? I think he is incredibly self serving more so than most politicians. I have theory that trump never intended to win this election, it was all a gambit for him to open countless lawsuits and sue for libel damages, from late night comedy shows, democratic and republic conventions, news casters and more. If you dig hard you can see that there a shit ton of lawsuits already filed by him. 

The real reason why trump said he would wait and see votes isn't that he doubted the validity of it all. It's that Trump agreeing to accept the votes would hurt the lawsuit saying  the election is rigged  which he inevitably will file once hes loses.

It really as simple as south park puts it "a turd sandwich or a giant douche". To me the election is like triage, if you have the choice  of losing your arm or finger what do you do? I cut off finger.

 

 

[Celerity]

I know quite a few people who will vote Trump. A lot more than I know who will vote for Hillary at any rate. I live in Iowa which is a swing state that slightly favors Trump right now.

My own family is split between 3 Johnson and 1 Hillary and all four of us have graduate degrees. I'm pretty connected to the Chinese community in the US (people who moved from mainland China to the US) and they also strongly favor Trump. They aren't exactly an under-educated crowd either.

You'd be very surprised who is voting for Trump. It isn't just uneducated white people. I know plenty of poorly educated people who are voting either way, but all of this anecdotal from my own experiences.

I think your biggest clues will be in the subreddits involved:

Hillary's Subreddit: 32,522 subscribers 840 online

Donald's Subreddit: 243,905 subscribers, 12,465 online

Hillary for Prison Subreddit: 60,741 subscribers, 390 online

He certainly has a lot more enthusiasm on reddit.

I'm not voting for Trump, but if I had to choose between Trump and Hillary, I'd definitely vote Trump for reasons I've detailed in another thread. Who you are voting for is not a sign of intelligence, education, political knowledge, or anything else. You can have two very smart, politically-minded people who choose to vote in opposite directions.

People talk a lot about Benghazi for Hillary, but I think Libya is a far more telling example. Trump annoys me when he talks about immigrants and protectionist economics. Hillary scares me when she talks about Russia and protectionist economics. I want to get along with Russia. I almost want to move to Russia. Free trade loses either way.

I expect to see a lot more situations like in the Ukraine and Syria under Hillary's leadership. I honestly believe Trump is willing (at least much more so than Hillary) to use diplomacy, especially with Russia. Hillary's diplomacy is heavy-handed and violent imperialism to me and she is so vigorously anti-Russia that it will cause problems, major problems. I can see Trump getting along with other leaders. I see Hillary trying to order them around, trying to maintain a vassal structure of puppet states.

I also believe Hillary is pretty much compromised, legally, at this point. Even if she does get elected, her entire tenure will be mired in controversy from the very beginning, and she'll have a very tough time getting anything done. Trump too, for that matter, but in a more political and less legal way. So the election might not be such a bad choice after all. We might get powerless leaders either way, and that would be wonderful for the US. The less that gets done in Washington, the better for the country and the world.

I'm not sweating this election.

[mya]

I totaly agree with you Gaunt. You guys are completely ... creamed.

Like Celerity said, for me, Trump is looking inside and looks less expansionist that Hilary in his foreign policies.

Unfortunately I believe Hilary will win. The system appears to be so controlled that I don't think the Elites will allow Trump to win. And if he loses there is still the small chance you guys end up with a minor civil war. Let's hope not.

This are unbelievable times, It's like we are right at the Archduke Franz Ferdinand death gate, again.

[Gaunticles]

The reddit statistics is very surprising but I'm going to believe Hillary will win and nothing will happen and everything will be shit.  Can't wait until its all over, To me this is the best plausible/possible outcome.

 

[Pali]

Currently, Hillary is by far the projected winner according to the aggregate polling data.. Reddit users are not a scientific sampling of the electorate.  

 

@mya, I don't think you understand how US presidential votes are tallied.  Each state does its own counts individually and internally - there is no Federal database that collects and tallies them that could be hacked or tampered with.  To mess with a nationwide election, you'd need to hijack the votes in each state individually - a conspiracy of massive scale and width would be required, and there simply is no evidence of anything close to that existing.  On top of that, ballots aren't destroyed after counting - hand recounts of many are a pretty regular occurrence, and can be done anywhere that questions arise as to the electronic counts; expect at least a few places to do so this year.

[Celerity]

To be fair, an efficient rigging doesn't need to change much. Even one state (or one county) can make all the difference. You don't need to control all the states. Just a few counties will swing a fairly close election.

That said, that was just devil's advocate. I believe primaries can be, and are, somewhat rigged (esp. Repub in 2012, Demo in 2016). The general election is tougher, but when you have the establishment of both parties rooting for the same candidate, anything can happen.

This isn't a Republican vs Democrat fight or a right vs left fight. This election is establishment vs anti-establishment and I believe either candidate can win at this point.

I personally believe Trump may win. We'll see in a couple of weeks.

[FatMike]

I said I wouldn't but I can't help it.

It's not rigging that is the problem because I am not sure it's widespread or enough to matter. What is a problem is the dead people in Virginia that up and tried to register to vote. What is another problem is an intimidation factor, I was listening to a talk-show host yesterday and a woman from Iowa/Indiana area came on and 4 of her 5 children aren't voting. The youngest of those 5 isn't voting because her professor told her that his vote would cancel out hers. Now of course this didn't happen to me and I don't know the family/lady that is claiming it but if he convinces one person, how many more can be influenced this way? It's a damn shame that a college professor would say something like that, voting is one of the few rights we actually have left that is pretty untouchable.

[Pali]

You are still talking about a multi-state conspiracy on a scale never seen in US elections.  Without actual evidence of the existence of such, I'm not going to let myself be too concerned by it.

 

Personally, while this has been sold to many as non-establishment vs establishment, I think one could easily argue that it is centrism vs racist authoritarianism.

 

Edit: what some random person says on a talk show is not a good source of information, particularly when it is second-hand hearsay.  You have no idea what the professor said - you know what the mom thinks her kid told her about what the professor said.

[Manual Labour]

I hope Trump wins. I feel he is by far the lesser of two evils, in fact I despise Clinton so much that Trump is starting to grow on me as a character.

If anyone is curious why I feel this way go watch some Paul Joseph Watson videos on youtube. In my opinion he is very intelligent, well spoken, and get's right to the point.  He also explains all the dangers of extreme left wing politics which could literally screw us all over really badly in the long run, much worse than anything Trump could do.

Thinking about Clinton, it isn't even her I fear that much, it is her followers I am very afraid of.

[Pali]

Clinton is not extreme left-wing.  She's a centrist as far as US politics go, and a right-winger by the rest of the world's standards.

 

For those who think Clinton is a serial liar and Trump is a truth-teller, you may want to compare Clinton's Politifact scorecard with Trump's.  Short version: she is in the bottom three ratings 26% of the time, while Trump is there 71% of the time.

[Celerity]

Long version: Fact check the fact checking: http://www.politifactbias.com/

And I just saw this (and I guess I'll be at the office too, with the whole gender equality thing for military conscription ):

[Manual Labour]

I know clinton herself isn't extreme left wing but many of her followers are, and like I said they scare me more than her.

[Pali]

Never claimed Politifact was perfect, but to their credit they keep a list of the judged comments as well as their reasoning, so anyone can do what the site Celerity linked to is doing and judge for themselves.  Most of their calls tend to be on point as far as I've seen, though I definitely recall having seen a number I disagree with.

 

edit: and the US left isn't all that left as far as the rest of the world is concerned either.  Very few advocate actual socialism, though you'll find plenty of Sanders-style social democrats (and most of us aren't exactly enamored with Clinton).

[Vaerick]

I saw a meme that captures it all perfectly. Trump is all that is wrong with society and Clinton all that is wrong with the government.

There is no solution for any real problem to be found in the government anymore. They can't even get their heads out of their asses to respond to national emergencies, let alone looking down the road 5, 10, 20 years. The partisanship has broken the country, and a good solution isn't worth it unless your party made it. Best solution ever proposed from the other side is total shit. That's what the government has boiled down to. But that's not even really the greatest threat.

Moneyed interests have bought and sold the nation as a whole. A good example is this bs with epipen- a product produced via taxpayer money, bought by daughter's company, lobbied by mom's group to require in schools, with dad voting it into law. There are a thousand million examples of this. To top it off, now the majority of congress are millionaires. A millionaire cannot represent the interests of the working and middle classes due to the very nature of their need to prey on the bottom two. That is to say, we are being taxed without representation. Moreover, the tax rate for the elite has gone down down down, while profits and productivity rise. If we had the tax rates that we had even when Regan left office we could have singlepayer healthcare and national college. These things aren't possible because shitheels like Donald Trump and all his kind (Clintons are of this kind) pay nothing, or if anything well less than they ought to. More IMPORTANTLY because they have so much of a concentration of wealth, this has allowed the unchecked lobbying which resulted in citizens united- and let's call that what it is- *The auctioning of political office to the highest bidder, foreign or domestic*.

The government we have was not designed for the world we live in. Even arguing sides like rep or dem or whatever is pointless because they are both equally incapable of making large scale change that needs to happen to get our shit together. Technology has largely made the existing systems nearly obsolete. Both because of what we can create AND the impact we leave. Global connectivity while good on one hand has also dramatically altered how the world works and the impact of our actions.

Pali for example, you speak of climate change. I'm right there with you, but I promise Clinton won't solve anything any more than Trump would. She won't even take a stand against DAPL. I don't like Trump, but I really don't think Hillary is much better if at all. The mix of the clinton foundation, the willingness to cozy up to the scum of our society (banks, big oil, arms manufacturing), and the outright blatant stranglehold she has on the democratic establishment leads me to conclude that such a concentration of power and wealth and connections is just as dangerous to democracy as a protofascist like Trump. I'm not saying Trump is good, I'm saying both are VERY bad. And worse than just being disliked, decietful or ignorant. They both pose existential threats to the country and democracy.

[Fool_Hardy]

Fact Checking 101.

1. Did Clinton abuse the system to make money? Yes.

2. Did Trump abuse the system to make money? Yes.

3. Will each of them continue to abuse the system for personal gain? Absolutely.

An employee that lies to me at seven in the morning, will lie to me at seven at night.

I personally do not believe we ever had a chance. America looked past Ben Carson because he was too quiet.

God forbid we put a thinking man in charge. I really have considered the notion that Trump is a democratic ruse.

Seriously, think about it, he shakes up the republican ballot boxes, dividing the votes, with likely no chance to win.

For those of you who do not live in America, many Americans considered this election the Republican's to lose,

growing tired of the changes being pushed on the middle class by the current administration.

Who would do this, unless they had a very good reason to do it? While I hate to think this way, I can not shake the theory.

[Vaerick]

Playing devils advocate, I could see the plant theory UP UNTIL he started talking about not accepting the results. Theoretically, that is how someone would talk who thought he was in the know and then found out near the end he was gonna get stuck with the check, so he started legitimately fighting back. For awhile, it was fairly suspicious how every time something went bad for Clinton, Trump had an unforced error. Now, just before and after the contesting of results, he wasn't stepping on his own toes so much as others were doing it for him. Politics is theatre for the elite and the educated, and ours is getting ever more complicated and dark.

[Pali]

46 minutes ago, Vaerick said:

Pali for example, you speak of climate change. I'm right there with you, but I promise Clinton won't solve anything any more than Trump would. She won't even take a stand against DAPL.

I stated above that Clinton doesn't go as far as I want.  This is perhaps an example, or perhaps tomorrow she'll put out a statement of being against it after she's taken some time to look at it, but one pipeline is not the issue.  The issue is whether our govt. will be willing to sign international agreements intended to limit emissions, and whether it will support transitioning to clean energy both domestically and abroad.  Her platform is on board with these things.  Trump either thinks it is not real, or he thinks that humans have nothing to do with it - the latter of which is effectively Republican dogma at this point, but absolutely NOT the scientific consensus.  Having someone who is at worst lackluster in their support for clean energy is still better than having someone who is utterly ignorant, possibly delusional on the subject.  This is one of those issues where the two aren't remotely close to being equally bad.

 

The claim that Ben Carson is a thinking man is just... wow.  Okay.  This is a man who thinks being gay is a choice (it isn't), that evolution is an idea literally encouraged by the Devil (rather than the cornerstone of all of biology), that the pyramids were built by Joseph to store grain (they weren't), and that Obamacare is the worst thing that happened to the US since slavery (as Kyzarius mentioned, it's got its issues, but this is a ridiculous level of hyperbole at best and utterly delusional at worst).  This is NOT a deep thinker - all of the above is trivially easy to show false.  Carson is a man who COULD have been a deep thinker if his mind hadn't been poisoned by Biblical literalism via Seventh Day Adventism (this is a church that was founded on the idea that Jesus would return in 1844; spoiler alert, didn't happen), and instead we are left with someone who does a fantastic job of showing that one can be a brilliant doctor while remaining a complete idiot in almost every other way.

[Vaerick]

Again, I'm not for Trump. But, I do question how she's better if it's words only. If nothing gets done they are the same. And really, Hillary has more of a vested interest against climate change action than Trump as they are giving to her, not him.

I guess my point, is this. It seems to me that the status quo, the elites, the establishment, whatever you call them (a rose by any other name.. or cowdroppings in this case) want you to think just that. I have to swallow Hillary to stop this evil man. She will probably be a net zero, but she MIGHT move us up a peg in the right direction, but at least we won't go backward.

In the link that follows, it is the Princeton study about the US and the impact of citizens vs special interests. Voting doesn't matter except as a way to gauge how far off political opinion is from their core positions, and the only thing I imagine they are looking at is who isn't voting red or blue. So when you say you have to vote for Hillary to stop Trump... I mean, it's all the same. Did shit change much from Bush to Obama? Not really. I think it's funny all the people who say Obama is a liberal.

We are the suckers here. Anyone who fights right or left, establishment or non, religious or atheist, whatever. What it boils down to is influence, control, and resources. It's the 5% vs the 95% as it stands today and they are winning with every rep or dem vote cast.

Point of interest, in the wikileaks Podesta emails:

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/23756

https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf

We should be protesting, not voting.



EDIT:
Climate change, healthcare, education- they aren't really single issues. The core problem behind them is moneyed interests abusing the many to profit the few.

Also, notice, whenever a bill that is in any way going to strengthen the government it gets passed with majority support on both sides of the aisle. Patriot acts, for example.