Cabal's and low members

[sarcon]

I'm curious to get everyone feedback on the matter. Let's say you join a cabal with 0 members, or really low active players. Do you feel the players that join that cabal and actually play, do some RP and generally hold down the fort should be promoted quicker? Or what about if you have a cabal with 0 Elders, then you have two or three active members suddenly start putting in some work. Should one of them be promoted quicker depending on the circumstances? I personally am capable of logging in some crazy hours when I want, however I'm trying to balance the two out. Sometimes I can have a toon that easily hits 300 hours in two months, while other times I try to balance it out. Now with regards to joining a cabal and going down that rabbit's hole, I'm trying to justify when I should keep on going with a character or dump them. Anytime I considering creating a toon and evaluating one cabal I want to join, I usually consider their overall activity to gauge how quickly one can be promoted. Do you feel it's wrong to have any expectations if you enter a cabal with none active players? or perhaps should this have nothing to do with promotions at all? 

[Kyzarius]

Don't play for the promotion.  play for the game.  Otherwise once you do get the promotion you have nothing else to aim for, burn out, and delete. 

[f0xx]

If the staff does not agree with the idea of one or two people running all the cabals, then we *need* some basic guidelines when it comes to cabal promotions.

The inconsistencies between different cabals are huge and this problem keeps appearing and will continue to, unless addressed.

[Fool_Hardy]

I once thought that it mattered.

It does not.

Lets say oh, Tribunal is empty. So I would think I should get in there and start logging my time. RP my arse off chase down some bad guys and fight like hell.

In the end, who is in charge? The man with the most captures, or second in line. Regardless of my logged hours and RP notes, PK Skill will be rewarded.

This should not be taken as RP can not get you anything you desire in this game, it most certainly could. But at the end of the day, those coveted spots are seldom earned through time served.

I simply decide what to RP and go from there. I just remember this, If I were a cabal imm, I would want my leaders to be role playing leaders.

See I think a lot of us have ADD or some variation, and the imms know we will get bored and quit as soon as they invest time in us. Its just like when they code something new, we never even enjoy the new thing we just start complaining. So when the zero hour tick hits and we do not get promoted we start rolling something new. Its in our nature to be ungrateful. When, if I remember correctly the proper solution to this problem is to seek out your elders or cabal imm and seek further instruction for receiving said promotion. Sometimes, this is Exactly what is required. Hell if your evil RP it, go beat some goodies down and threaten to kill them if they do not tell you where this immortal or that is hiding. Good luck.

 

[sarcon]

17 minutes ago, f0xx said:

If the staff does not agree with the idea of one or two people running all the cabals, then we *need* some basic guidelines when it comes to cabal promotions.

The inconsistencies between different cabals are huge and this problem keeps appearing and will continue to, unless addressed.

 

100% Agree. I just witnessed someone being in Cabal A sitting at Trusted, while someone else in Cabal B literally went from Inductee to Elder before said player in Cabal A was promoted to Elder, in a cabal with 0 Elders. 

[sarcon]

24 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

Don't play for the promotion.  play for the game.  Otherwise once you do get the promotion you have nothing else to aim for, burn out, and delete. 

I also agree here, I just find that any toon I roll, my RP changes depending on promotion. Thus, there are times I personally find I'm waiting to roll out XYZ RP plans yet can't do anything until the promotion happens. Maybe that is a toon build flaw I have. 

[Fool_Hardy]

While I get the argument for who should run cabals, I would like to see a mechanic added. A mob who allows Cabal Members to ask for quests similar to the guild masters. Unlike other quests, these quests would be EXTREMELY difficult. Something that will require a group to complete, Get a note from Adeptus have the Puppet Master sign it and deliver it to Tawny in seven days. Yeah I know, too difficult in the time span but you get the Idea. These quests could award the Cabal Member a new currency, Promotion Points. A minimum number will be required to receive any promotion beyond trusted. The one drawback is, people would have to interact with others, perhaps outside their cabal. But I see this as earning a Cabal Promotion by promoting your Cabal. Perhaps a small RP award could be given both to the member and to those who aid the Cabal Member on the Quest. Man, I have a lot to say when I take a day of vacation.

[Izzy]

Everybody plays ANY game to excel at it.  In whatever way they wish to excel and it.  In this game some might  be trying to excel RP.  PK for another. Perhaps a  mix of both.  Yet we are all people.  When I play COD if I dont have above a 2.0 kill death ratio, im not happy.  When I play wow and its raid night, if we arent progressing and killing the raids, im not happy.

 

With all of those things that is in your control mostly.  Here it feels like a job.  You've been working hard doing your thing, putting in work and then you dont get promoted.  Well I can say it as simply as this.  When I am at a job and doing my thing and the promotion doesn't happen.  My ass is quitting and going to find a job where I can move up.  Who doesnt want to progress.  There is too few ways to move up on this game.  I play my toons stand around lalalalalalala.

 

Then I ask myself what the hell is it you want me to do?  Make it clearer for me.

 

This can be changed very simply by making the players in charge of the cabal period.  I make a clan on COD we do some team deathmatch, domination.  I dont need to please anyone.  I do my job.  I move up through the ranks, can start recruiting players, chat....so on and so forth.  Thats in 30 hours of playtime.

 

I have played an average of 200 hours on each of my toons.

 

The thought process is oh but you need to be this and that and this to get elder and leader in this game.  Yet you forget we are people.  People get bored of doing nothing.  Who cares if one person was a leader, then he/she quit.  That makes room for another.  Oh we had an elder then he quit.  Again who cares.  ITS JUST A GAME.  

Its supposed to be fun and not a job.

 

[Kyzarius]

14 minutes ago, sarcon said:

I also agree here, I just find that any toon I roll, my RP changes depending on promotion. Thus, there are times I personally find I'm waiting to roll out XYZ RP plans yet can't do anything until the promotion happens. Maybe that is a toon build flaw I have. 

I know that feeling.  Though I usually build around q-thing not cabal promotions. 

[sarcon]

Cabal's should be run by players, the Immortals can always be like the Divine presence within a cabal, but not actually run it. Unless, you have a very active immortal that shows themselves and is actively engaged in RP all the time to help shape the Cabal. Obviously there are many elements to this game that are not real or lifelike, however when it comes to cabals, their should be some pretty standard guidelines. Imagine if in real life, someone joins some fraction, their forces have been pushed back on the battlefield and the enemies generals are running a muck. Suddenly, this new eager inductee rises and kills all the generals, pushes the invading forces back and starts their own frontal assault. That right there.. should result in some fast advancements. You always need a active hierarchy such as our Trusted, Elders and Leaders, period. If you have a cabal with no Leader than by default someone needs to be leader. Now, we should just open the coup mechanics to every single cabal to help balance this. This will help if someone's being a crappy Leader, they can simply be overruled. This can be done by a vote or by combat. Leaders and Elders should also have strict playing times and RP point requirements. I think this is already in practice yes? Perhaps this should be bumped up and instead of just RP points, we introduce CRP (Cabal RP Points). It doesn't do any cabal good if your Leader is doing journals about bunnies and flowers yet leaves out any Cabal development but has hundreds of cabal points. 

[Zavero]

I personally could not log 300 hours in two months. Not even close. That being said, I try to make the time I have to play as quality as I can. If there is nothing to do then sure I'll sit around but I'll write journals, history, notes, etc... I personally enjoy this time most. I understand some would rather be doing other things.

I will say this seems to come up a lot since I have come back. Players wanting some things to come faster. 200 hours on a character in a cabal that has no Elders and not being promoted to elder seems a bit excessive though. I'm sure they have their reasoning. Immortals are human as well and perhaps there just needs to be better communication between everyone involved.

[Zavero]

I don't agree that any player should have strict play times. You should not punish those who cannot play as much as others because of real life issues. They must meet the minimums though, for sure.

[Magick]

47 minutes ago, sarcon said:

Imagine if in real life, someone joins some fraction, their forces have been pushed back on the battlefield and the enemies generals are running a muck. Suddenly, this new eager inductee rises and kills all the generals, pushes the invading forces back and starts their own frontal assault.

 

Just because someone is a good soldier doesn't make them a good leader.

[sarcon]

Just now, Magick said:

 

Just because someone is a good soldier doesn't make them a good leader.

 

This is true. 

[Izzy]

There is too little in the way of rewards for Cabals.  Not everyone is going to be an elder, leader.  Most everyone will get trusted if they put the work in.  Then what do those players have to look forward to,the ones knowing that they probobly wont get elder or anything else.  Should be things to reward everyone, at the end of the day people just want to be noticed.  This is a phycological thing about being human.  People want to know they are doing a good job.  Thats it, its simple.

[Fool_Hardy]

History repeats itself unless we have the wisdom to avoid it.

I choose wisdom.

I remember.

Edit. Its like this there are 8 regular cabals, not sure if Breaker is still active.

That's 24 E or L positions available, with an active player base of ? 30?

So someone is getting left out. Likely someone without the cornucopia of time that you may have.

It gets worse, because eventually you get that E. But while you were waiting you now have an I over there.

So as your I grows, you buy time with your E hoping for L, meanwhile your I became T.

Now your mad because your not E in the other cabal.

And everyone else is mad because 1/30 of the player base is holding 1/12 of all positions available or more.

Ahh, bless you Anume, the cycle doeth turn. And come around again.

[Kyzarius]

Coups for all!!!!

[Kyzarius]

on another note, you should get only 1 E or L per player. just like Q classes.  

 

I thought this was the rule anyways? 

[Zavero]

From Aume in the RP Points Sticky in general discussion:

Sidenote:
We've also decided on an update on cabal positions:
- you may not have a char in two hardcoded vendettaed cabals (nothing new)
- You may not have more than one L at any given time. If you wish to get L in a cabal and already have a L in another, you will have to find a way with that cabal imm to demote you to E.
- You may not have more than two Es or one L and an E at any given time.

 

[Lloth]

[sarcon]

It's such a fine line at times. I really enjoy Immortal RP within a cabal, sometimes that's all I'm waiting for, while other times it's developing cool internal plots with your cabal members. However, the issue I'm finding is a large portion of RP can sometimes be limited depending on your position within the cabal. If your a low ranking cabal member, you can't really help shape or design semi-major plots within the cabal, or maybe you can, I just haven't thought out a proper approach. Typically I feel when you are T, E or L, you can really direct and guide mini plots. Obviously more at the E or L position, but none the less the ball can get rolling. This is why I feel players should Lead the cabal via game mechanics but still have assigned immortal influence, to assist with the process. If you throw the fact that coups can happen once every 2 months, or even internal votes can change leadership, elders etc, maybe even once every 3 real months or something.. this will really force RP and fun activity within the cabal. 

[Ulmusdorn]

Lloth beat me to posting something funny, so I'll take a different route. 

 

Firstly I'd like to bring up an Ogre. Recently, as you saw on the forum, this Ogre was killed once by Lisko and then abandoned. I haven't seen the toon since. What if we had allowed them to join a cabal? What if they just left and never said anything. For 1 additional month you would all not be able to take that spot. 

We require people to show commitment. Because when you don't commit it effects OTHER PLAYERS. We're trying to create the most fun environment possible. But that, like nearly everything in life, requires a little structure.

 

 

8 hours ago, sarcon said:

100% Agree. I just witnessed someone being in Cabal A sitting at Trusted, while someone else in Cabal B literally went from Inductee to Elder before said player in Cabal A was promoted to Elder, in a cabal with 0 Elders. 

A really good example of this was the recent rise of Savants. Some WM waited a literal month to get promoted to T whilst within a week some Savants went from I - T. 

Was there outrage from some players? Sure? Was it justified that they got promoted? Sure their cabal Imm thought so. 

 

8 hours ago, sarcon said:

I also agree here, I just find that any toon I roll, my RP changes depending on promotion. Thus, there are times I personally find I'm waiting to roll out XYZ RP plans yet can't do anything until the promotion happens. Maybe that is a toon build flaw I have. 

*Sigh* - Why? Why do you have to be E for your RP to affect the wills of others or progress your ideas? You can create votes, polls etc. Your cabal imm, in any cabal, will follow what the cabal wants if they vote on it. Nimue isn't even IN A CABAL. Yet we have nearly E and L in the game hopping to her ideas? Maybe you're doing something wrong? Think about it.

 

8 hours ago, Fool_Hardy said:

While I get the argument for who should run cabals, I would like to see a mechanic added. A mob who allows Cabal Members to ask for quests similar to the guild masters. Unlike other quests, these quests would be EXTREMELY difficult. Something that will require a group to complete, Get a note from Adeptus have the Puppet Master sign it and deliver it to Tawny in seven days. Yeah I know, too difficult in the time span but you get the Idea. These quests could award the Cabal Member a new currency, Promotion Points. A minimum number will be required to receive any promotion beyond trusted. The one drawback is, people would have to interact with others, perhaps outside their cabal. But I see this as earning a Cabal Promotion by promoting your Cabal. Perhaps a small RP award could be given both to the member and to those who aid the Cabal Member on the Quest. Man, I have a lot to say when I take a day of vacation.

How would you feel if only the same 3-4 people got E/L then. Because 90% of our pbase has real jobs. And families. And social commitments. 

Somebody silent PKing their way through the pbase, not developing RP, not pushing your cabals agenda forward. Lets not get started on OOC circles  (of which I've been apart of in the past don't get me wrong) voting to keep their char's in E/L positions. 

You want us to hand over control? We are still punishing people for breaking the same basic rules. Mutli-ing, trading eq between characters, OOC grudges... Your eyes would roll and your teeth would gnash to know just how immature some people are. Now you want these, unmonitored people, to have free reign with a little imm influence thrown in on the side? 

 

What people seem to forget is that this game is based on two principle things: RP and PK. 

If your RP is weak, you won't get E. If your PK is weak, it will be HARDER to get E but not impossible. If you only choose to fight from a position of strength thats fine, but it also doesn't impress me. If you are Goruk for example, and you literally die ALL THE TIME but keep going. I am impressed. If you are Araethil and don't have a huge PK record but you're as devious as a street urchin in a bazaar - and he's E in a cabal? Must be doing something right. 

 

8 hours ago, Izzy said:

With all of those things that is in your control mostly.  Here it feels like a job.  You've been working hard doing your thing, putting in work and then you dont get promoted.  Well I can say it as simply as this.  When I am at a job and doing my thing and the promotion doesn't happen.  My ass is quitting and going to find a job where I can move up.  Who doesnt want to progress.  There is too few ways to move up on this game.  I play my toons stand around lalalalalalala.

 

 

You guys can always ask directly on Prayer or in the game through prayers for an OOC chat. We all have a good idea of who is where and for what reason. 

11 minutes ago, sarcon said:

It's such a fine line at times. I really enjoy Immortal RP within a cabal, sometimes that's all I'm waiting for, while other times it's developing cool internal plots with your cabal members. However, the issue I'm finding is a large portion of RP can sometimes be limited depending on your position within the cabal. If your a low ranking cabal member, you can't really help shape or design semi-major plots within the cabal, or maybe you can, I just haven't thought out a proper approach. Typically I feel when you are T, E or L, you can really direct and guide mini plots. Obviously more at the E or L position, but none the less the ball can get rolling. This is why I feel players should Lead the cabal via game mechanics but still have assigned immortal influence, to assist with the process. If you throw the fact that coups can happen once every 2 months, or even internal votes can change leadership, elders etc, maybe even once every 3 real months or something.. this will really force RP and fun activity within the cabal. 

I'm sorry... You can't do this now? This is the difference between team leadership and autocratic leadership. The one is granted and the other is inferred. In my opinion, people will only do what you say, regardless of your position if you have inferred leadership. Sure we can give you E but if your cabal don't support you... Then you'd never achieve anything anyway. You need people to believe and you need people to follow and you need people to support. 

Character x gets E and says, we must all now go and kill every citizen in the city because I say so. Any player response would be, why? If I trust/support you its. Why --> lets do it OR  if I don't it'll be Why --> kill your own stupid citizens. I'm going to winter instead.

 

 

Final point: I see this a lot, especially in the office (and now at my second FL office too) is that people always look outside to see why they aren't getting X. Why they aren't achieving Y and why they aren't king of the mountain. Often the people who do succeed have a great deal of self awareness and the ability to look introspectively will overcome the barriers that are stopping them from achieving what they want. 

 

Afterthought: Some of you might have noticed how much time we spend as immortal staff on this game. To improve and provide a space where you can enjoy yourselves. Reading journals, approving applications, being grammar police with descriptions. How about the idea that running a cabal is our little reward? Our opportunity to stay connected to the game while we're building. While we're developing quests. While we're doing all of the other responsibilities we have?

[sarcon]

This is why I love this community, great discussion all around and two thumbs up everyone gets from me. Great points @Ulmusdorn you broke that down pretty damn good. I don't even really have anything else to add to that or rebuttal really. The only thing I would say is when I mentioned RP based on T, E, L, it is more for personal character development, not so much for passing taks/duties/RP juju to the members. However your right, there shouldn't be any real reason to put any of your RP on hold because of some promotion, this is one track mind thinking. Great points. Thanks! 

[Lloth]

Since I know what this thread was started over, all I am going to say  before saying "That's enough of this tom-foolery, now play nice." to everyone that needs a chill pill... is... 

You really should have brought this up on prayer.

Instead you decided to shame the advancements of another player's character because they got what you didn't. Character history doesn't matter? Tangible, world-affecting RP doesn't matter? Strict adherence to the rules and exemplary in-character behavior doesn't matter? Who the hell are you to admonish another character's progression. That's really shameful, dude. As much as I hate to use public forums to call anyone out, I am gladly making this exception. How would that make you feel, to be that player, and read somebody's entire forum post about how if they don't get something, neither should you.

I tried to keep it upbeat with a Louis C.K. meme, but I guess sometimes you have to explicitly say "This behavior is childish."

With that said.

That's enough of this tom-foolery, now play nice.

 

[sarcon]

2 minutes ago, Lloth said:

Since I know what this thread was started over, all I am going to say  before saying "That's enough of this tom-foolery, now play nice." to everyone that needs a chill pill... is... 

You really should have brought this up on prayer.

Instead you decided to shame the advancements of another player's character because they got what you didn't. Character history doesn't matter? Tangible, world-affecting RP doesn't matter? Strict adherence to the rules and exemplary in-character behavior doesn't matter? Who the hell are you to admonish another character's progression. That's really shameful, dude. As much as I hate to use public forums to call anyone out, I am gladly making this exception. How would that make you feel, to be that player, and read somebody's entire forum post about how if they don't get something, neither should you.

I tried to keep it upbeat with a Louis C.K. meme, but I guess sometimes you have to explicitly say "This behavior is childish."

With that said.

That's enough of this tom-foolery, now play nice.

 

 

Time out, I hope this insn't directed to me... by no means am I upset or trying to put anyone down. If someone gets T, E, or L that is none of my business and I am 100% for that. I'm a very positive person and don't intentionally try to put people down. Each person puts the effort into their character and I would never call foul or get upset about that. I don't function like that. I was merely expressing an example as to why auto promotional game mechanics would come in handy, case in point that scenario. However, by no means is that intended to take away anyone's mojo or even for a moment take someone's shine away for all the effort they put into getting that promo.