Necromancer Feedback

[Celerity]

I'm really curious how people feel about the necromancer rework.

How are the paths vs each other?

Charmie selection balanced (in general and vs other choices)? 

Anything badly balanced in the skillset?

How would you improve them?

[Quicksilver]

Depends on how specific we're allowed to talk about each path.  I've played both bone and negative myself.

[Pali]

Teldrin's my only one so far - bone path - and he's not done much PKing yet, so I don't have much of an opinion of worth yet.  Bump the thread in a couple months, I'll have more to say.  

[Celerity]

I imagine you can talk in as much depth as you are able. Hard mechanics are still unknown (no code base, so no danger of code spoilers), and they aren't a quest class, so general in-depth discussion from experience is allowed. It is like discussing ranger paths. For example, what are the paths good at? What are they weak against? Etc.

[ajwetton]

I had one that I got to instantly select all my paths for when they first went live and I was abit overwhelmed having played one from 1 to 50 now only tried bone, I think its interesting, although I wasn't sure how useful each powerword was and mine was mostly going to go PVE for farming etc for his RP but I wasn't sure what path so I went bone with a mummy for the tank pet and I enjoyed it, I still dont know alot of specifics about some of the abilities but I don't know whos played one to ask for help on it. I like how each one is supposed to be geared towrads different types of classes and any class with selections especially with multiple selections I really enojoy because of the re-playability. So far I enjoy the changes haven't PK'd much and am still learning how they work but I hope to be able to sometime.

[f0xx]

As far as it goes, the necromancer revamp was perhaps the most balanced out of all we've had recently.

Although it seems a bit counter intuitive to me i.e. the physical zombies are considered as anti melee, the magical ones as anti mage....

But then I've had VERY little experience with them.

To me personally, their power spike seems a bit lower than before, but their playability has become on par with rangers.

[Pali]

The power spike is lower, but the recovery period from loss is MUCH less of an issue as well - all those duels Teldrin and Rygar fought were only spaced out by a bit more than a day in-game and I had recovered full armies after each loss, though needing souls to strengthen minions complicates full recovery a bit.

[Pali]

On reflection, it couldn't hurt to edit the soul tap file slightly to make it clearer that it now works to strength damned as well - the line that says it enhances key necromatic spells could just be changed to "his creations and key spells" or the like.  The see also at the bottom DOES mention strength damned, but to be honest I have no idea how long I'd have gone before figuring it out had it not come up on the forum.

[Kyzarius]

To be fair Pali, you never fought him at full power. 

[Pali]

Didn't mean to imply that I had.

[Quicksilver]

Bone:

The minions are very active about dirt kicking, which can be good or bad depending on how much you want to land blind.  The improved shatter's residual damage makes it even more satisfying to land.  The mastery spell, Brittleness, tends to just make the person run for the hills if they are familiar with what it does, but still a good finisher.

Negative:

The minions are definitely more defensive, which is nice in a pk situation and non-cleaving mobs.  Their defensive nature gives you the option of picking ghoul as your final summon, while still gaining some ability to absorb damage.  Their fire shield is of course only useful when they're in front and the flamestrike blind is unreliable.  Infernal Link feels too situational, doesn't reflect a lot and doesn't heal for a lot, but it costs quite a bit of mp.  Corrosion is a great passive capstone.

[Kyzarius]

Infernal link takes 2 - 3 tries even on a sleeping opponent.  Then does very insignificant damage.  You get heals from it, but also very very minor. 

 

that being said the negative path is very nice.  Saying it is anti-communer though is misleading.  It is more anti-melee really than anything.  

 

Since it was changed powerword stun hasn't landed a stun in 11 tries.  

[English lad]

Only played Bone - but one thing that I think could do with a tweak is Brittleness.  100 mana for a Mal that has to pass saves checks is crazy - especially given the fact that most characters have decent saves these days.

I think Brittleness either needs a major decrease in spell cost (like down to 25 mana) or (and this is my preference) make it more interesting by making auto-land, with a decent length cooldown (24 hours or so?).

I prefer the 2nd option because this means you would need to be strategic on how and when you use it, rather than just spamming it like any other Mal.

[f0xx]

The pet with fire shield on, does something akin to automatic rescue without lagging you. Pretty neat.

[Celerity]

4 hours ago, Quicksilver said:

 it costs quite a bit of mp. 

Is mana really a major issue for necros? Multiple people are bringing it up. I personally think it is good that mana is considered and relevant for a mage (we could go a long ways to balancing clerics by increasing mana costs). Is it too much, though? Are you actually running out much too soon?

 

3 hours ago, Kyzarius said:

Infernal link takes 2 - 3 tries even on a sleeping opponent.  Then does very insignificant damage.  You get heals from it, but also very very minor. 

 

that being said the negative path is very nice.  Saying it is anti-communer though is misleading.  It is more anti-melee really than anything.  

 

Since it was changed powerword stun hasn't landed a stun in 11 tries.  

Infernal link numbers sounds like they may need to be looked at a bit. I imagine infernal link + corrosion is supposed to be the 'anti-communer' combo. Can you give some detail why it seems to be more anti-melee than communer?

 

11 hours ago, f0xx said:

Although it seems a bit counter intuitive to me i.e. the physical zombies are considered as anti melee, the magical ones as anti mage....

Because many melees are resistant to physical damage, you mean? I guess one? mage is pretty resistant to magical damage (but what a waste to use mana shield vs non-DK/special weapons), but generally, magical damage is better against both melee and mages. I think the physical zombies do more things like disarm and more importantly have better hitroll to bypass melee defenses, so they might be considered 'anti-melee' in that sense.

 

[Magick]

Infernal link, from what I've seen, inflicts about 25% of the incoming damage back out.  Haven't bothered checking heal rates.  Two to three to land isn't bad, saves depending.

Edit: Given that IL is unblockable damage in addition to your suite of spells and charmies, I'm not sure that the damage out needs tweaking at all.

[Fool_Hardy]

Mana has not been an issue, perhaps I chose a better combo.

So far I like that the Necromancer is no longer dependent on others. You get the high level creatures without needing someone to help you kill something stronger.

I like that paths each have a unique feel to them, the choices actually aided me in fleshing out the RP of my character.

I do think that top end PK will prove difficult given the current save numbers being seen, however, I have faith that WE as an intelligent community will eventually learn to utilize the changes in new and exciting ways.

Overall, I give it a thumbs up.

[Kyzarius]

2 minutes ago, Celerity said:

Is mana really a major issue for necros? Multiple people are bringing it up. I personally think it is good that mana is considered and relevant for a mage (we could go a long ways to balancing clerics by increasing mana costs). Is it too much, though? Are you actually running out much too soon?

 

Infernal link numbers sounds like they may need to be looked at a bit. I imagine infernal link + corrosion is supposed to be the 'ant-communer' combo part. Can you give some detail why it seems to be more anti-melee than communer?

 

Because many melees are resistant to physical damage, you mean? I guess one? mage is pretty resistant to magical damage (but what a waste to use mana shield vs non-DK/special weapons), but generally, magical damage is better against both melee and mages. I think the physical zombies do more things like disarm and more importantly have better hitroll to bypass melee defenses, so they might be considered 'anti-melee' in that sense.

 

I think the "mana" comparison for value is misplaced.  Though it is an exaggerated issue if you are playing any non-illithid race.  Or are not Savant

The real minus is spells that cost 100 mana, have a very slim chance of landing, AND take two rounds of lag, AND have an opener requirement.  Two rounds of lag is a very expensive cost.  Since most melees do 80 to 150 a round.  Decked ones 200 +.  The idea of losing 300 - 400 hp at the cost of a failed spell really moves the neater affects to the bottom of the list.  Not to mention as an opener, if it misses you really get hit HARD.

 

Infernal link was doing hits and scratches while I Was taking Mutilates / lacerates. I would value the return at 5% -10% maybe @Erelei could confirm for us?    A clerics cure crit healed me for 3 - 4 hp.  Nymph hearts 1 - 2 hp.  The valuation is super low.  Add to it a substantial cost in both mana and lag, and it quickly becomes a spell only useable on a sleeping opponent and really not worth it then except for flavor.   I know the damage is capped too,  I took an unspeakable for 1200 hp.  It did only a graze to my target. 

 

The wraith made negative a better anti melee path.  Auto rescue with no lag, a fire shield, I have won more fights because of this simple thing than any other spell in the new necro arsenal.  All it takes is an autorescue to proc while your pets are lagging and its over.  Sicne things like curse, weaken, blind, were resisted more often than not the best approach is to default to acid blasts, and pet-dirt, pet-auto rescue, pet-trip/bash.  So the strat becomes "make it so your pets can lag" and win.  Stand behind the wraith and fire acid blasts.  

 

Powerword stun WAS a great ability, but I put it away and relied on cone of force.  I tried powerword stun 11 times, on sleeping targets, and 4 times on waking ones POST changes.  It never stunned a single time.  ALWAYS costing me either the prey as they ran, or eating huge damage from the spell lag and missing. 

[Erelei]

An unspeakable should return anywhere from a MANGLE to a DEMOLISH. I'd like to see the log where you took a legit 400+ damage and only 'grazed' your opponent afterward. Same goes for cure as well. A cure critical can cure anywhere from, what, 30-50 hp? You should be gaining 10+ or so every time they do it.

[Kyzarius]

i dont have the log, but it was chronoshield, and goruk took the hit. 

[Erelei]

Chronoshield has nothing to do with infernal link, and doesn't work like that. Thank god for that. lol

[Kyzarius]

leave it to me to try and nuke someone with it.

[Zavero]

From my personal experience mana has been an issue unless you're an Illithid or maybe drow. Every time I slept someone I have had to sleep in between for one or two rounds while they are slept just to maintain enough mana to try and finish them. 

Bear in mind this is only when they have been put to sleep. I don't generally waste time with mals when they are awake so i don't go through as much mana. 

[Kyzarius]

I went back and looked, I so infrequently could land infernal link I do not have any logs of it in use.  Even against sleeping folks it failed. 

[Erelei]

2 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

I went back and looked, I so infrequently could land infernal link I do not have any logs of it in use.  Even against sleeping folks it failed. 

Heh.

I've got several myself, since I played one of the necromancers. And they all line up with what I stated. Infernal link AFAIK never had an issue landing on a spelled up opponent. That said, I never attempted it until they were completely spelled up and I was ready to wake them.