Removal of the Cabal Interference Mandate(or Revision)

[Deravgner]

Alright, me, and a lot of other people out here have been here since beta. Been in cabals in 1.0, 2.0 all the way up until now. Now when I first got Caballed, it was because it was earned and I could take on the challenge.

Nowadays, I see cabal'd people using this Mandate to help shield them from unwanted PK.

I have faught a cabal person uncaballed IG for an hour straight, Cabal enemy gets on, the Person I was fighting goes straight to his cabal and sits within the 2 room 'safe zone' I attac, he complains to Immortals for cabal interference, I get slayed.

I know this may seem like a whine but its not, I know its happened to a number of people. The way I view cabals is that Cabal'd people are held in a higher standard of PK (Heralds discluded). They should have no reason to need a pk shield from noncabal'd people that want to fight them. Now I am also against uncabal'd people actually joining with Cabal'd allies to fight other cabal'd people directly. But as it stands, you can be alone with no enemy of the cabal'd person in sight, they be sitting outside their cabal, you attack, possibly win, but in return you get slayed/looted for 'cabal interference'. Its happened to me WAY to many times since this rule has been added that cabal'd people will run straight to their cabal/enemies cabal just to not have to worry about uncaballed people coming to fight them.

I want opinions, I know this rule was not meant to give a pk shield to Caballed people but it is what it is coming to because as it stands there is NO leniancy to the uncaballed people.

[Celerity]

My advice is when you see somebody abusing this, pray and note it.

[Zrothum]

I'd reply right now, but I'm way too upset. All I will say for the moment is I completely agree with the idea of filtering cabal interference. But, it's being abused by people who are FULLY capable of defending themselves. Nothing SEEMS ( i dont pretend to know what goes on in the heavens ) to be being done about that. Only uncabaled 50s who are kicking cabal'd chars around and getting slayed/full looted because the other person can do nothing but whine, complain, and put you in a situation where you are breaking the rules.

[Zrothum]

My advice is when you see somebody abusing this' date=' pray and note it.[/quote']

It shouldn't come down to that at all. This game has become so...I don't know the word for it. I refuse to be playing this game looking for ways to get people in trouble, I play because I love the competition. It's stupid. I want to fight. I want to have a challenge. I don't want to sit here and tattle on so-and-so because he's kciking my butt and I can't handle him.

[Zrothum]

My suggestion:

Make the cabal interference rule apply only to Veterans and below. Anyone given T or above in a cabal should be pretty damned close to a character who should be able to handle themselves in any situation, instead of being a coward and whining/crying because someone wants to kill you.

Make it unpunishable unless a log is submitted with FOOLPROOF evidence. Or if an IMM has been on the snoop hunt and has witnessed unexcusable cabal interference.

Change the rule so that once a standard has been taken and brought to your cabal, you are free to be attacked. Anywhere. Your own fault anyway if you rest outside your cabal in the open while drained. (of course, if the two cabald opponents are in the area, interference applies here)

That's it for now.

[Deravgner]

Which is why I brought this to the forums. As it stands, a cabal'd person don't have to even notify an enemy that he's defending/taking standard. It is up to the UNCABALLED person to know of all this. But like Zrothum said, the most cases where the Cabal'd people complain is when they are gettin beaten by the uncaballed person, thus using this rule to help shield them from PK against said person. When a cabal enemy logs on that person can go straight to his cabal and say he's defending just to prevent having to worry about getting attacked by the uncaballed person. Not to mention the Caballed person can attack the uncaballed person whenever he feels like it and not get any punishment even when their enemies ARE on. But when the uncaballed person wants to get a jump on the cabal'd person, they are at the risk of getting slayed for 'cabal interference'.

[Zrothum]

What really gets my goat is it's all word of mouth before being attacked. I doubt the full story is being told or logged. Yet, people are getting slain and full looted. Being uncabaled at 50 just simply isn't fun anymore. What bigger thrill then taking on cabald elders/trusted/anything with an uncaballed character, but now you have to let them be so they can do their business? Ridiculous. I remember Virigoth saying that Aabahran is a dangerous place, full of enemies everywhere. Giving cabaled characters who are supposed to be excellent players a shield from PK and then slaying and full looting people over little more than word of mouth....it just makes the 50 range look completely uninviting unless you can get cabaled almost immediately.

[California Raisin]

Cabal interference should involve:

1. A clan member of opposing cabal

2. A cabal member of an allied cabal

Other than that, it should be free game. Unclanned/uncaballed people should be able to attack whoever whenever they want

[Zrothum]

I frankly don't see it being interference unless the two cabals are fighting in the area. Hell, I don't even see that being interference. You should be able to gang anyone anywhere at 50. Why? This game is supposed to be dangerous. Go find Virigoth and ask him that. You are not at 50 to be protected from PK by the people who want to kill you just because you decided to join a cabal and take on that extra responsibility. You should always have to be on the lookout for enemies. You shouldn't be shielded just because you are doing your duties. Everyone is doing their duty. You know you have to go take/retrieve a standard. You should be careful and take precautions to stay out of Deaths way. You shouldnt be babysat and hand held and have your enemies slayed because you decided to be in a cabal and take on that danger and responsibility.

Maybe it was overdramatic deleting my characters. But I refuse to play at 50 like this. I'm not gonna fool myself and say Im leaving over it. But I can promise you won't be seeing me at 50 unless something is changed. It takes all the fun out of the game for me when I can't attack a cabal elder because he's "busy" Im uncaballed trying to take on one of the more powerful ppl in the game....it just doesn't sit right with me.

Like I told one of our Immortals....I have no angst against their makings of this rule, although I heavily disagree with it. I think it was made for good reason to stop gangs of clannies/uncabaled hitting up on cabald people at vendetta with their clans cabal. Makes perfect sense. But, its being abused and innocent people are being F"ed in the bum because of it.

another situation.

I attack cabalmemberA and we fight for awhile.

CabalmemberB logs on and has vendetta with A.

A goes and takes Bs standard.

I find A at his cabal.

Just because he decided to go do something else I have to stop attacking him? Hell, thats breaking RP for starters.

I attack and they flee.

They whine and complain and send a log of me attacking them at their cabal while drained.

Summoned, slayed, full looted.

This is just an example of what could and does happen. No, this isn't exactly what happened to me, yet, it is a loophope that can and is being abused.

To the person who was involved with me my own situation today. Please do not think I hate you. I just don't like this rule. I'd rather this thread remain open so we can discuss this and hopefully bring about some reform to it. If I have offended you with something I've said, PM me and I will change it. Im not here to flame you or berate you. I just want to be able to play to 50 and have fun, not watch my Ps and Qs over something ridiculous.

[Chayesh]

Words of the guilty's own mouth, both spoken and written in an in game note confirmed it in the latest incident that I assume spawned this thread. Punishment for breaking these rules are meted out in response to the seriousness of the violation. A blatant and willful disregard for any rule usually earns you a slay and corpse eaten. This rule is no different. Additionally, by making the rule apply to the TWO ROOMS in front of each cabal eliminated the need for players to "guess" whether a cabaled person was engaged or not. If they aren't in those TWO ROOMS, gut 'em.

As for the rule, it only applies to TWO ROOMS from the cabal entrance/altar. TWO WHOLE ROOMS. Aabahran is a dangerous place but it is also a HUGE place of over 30000 rooms. Eight cabals x TWO WHOLE ROOMS = Over 29984 rooms in which to kick ***. Attack them just about anywhere but in the two rooms before a cabal altar and you'd be fine most likely.

I really fail to see how this is an issue for anyone.

[Warpnow]

I think the burden of proof should be on the cabal'd person who is recieving the pk shield.

[Chayesh]

Additionally, ABSOLUTELY YES, it should be noted to us in game or on the prayer forum of ANY cabaled person taking advantage of this rule by hiding from PK in their cabals. I've mentioned this before. Any cabaled person doing this shall be dealt with harshly.

[Zrothum]

I really fail to see how this is an issue for anyone.

I really fail to see how it isn't. With all due respect, all you've done it restate the rule. You haven't said why it should exist and why these people who CHOSE this responsibilty are being protected.

Why should a cabal elder be immune to attack from an uncabaled person when he isn't doing anything but the things he chose to do when he joined a cabal? Why should someone get slayed for attacking someone hes been chasing forever, finds outside his cabal, with no one else around. Why is he granted immunity from the dangerous people in the world? Is this a new reward for being cabaled? Gangbang after 40 are allowed. why is this any different

[Anume]

These rules are by no means a pk shield. You can attack a caballed person almost everywhere in the lands, why is it so difficult not to attack two rooms from their altar? Standard fighting is also not going on forever. If you see someone abusing the rule to just hang around near their cabal tell their cabal imm. It will be taken care of swiftly.

Concerning your complaint about lack of proof, Zrothum, usually it does suffice if both the caballed guy AND the attacker himself tell us the same thing.

[Zrothum]

These rules are by no means a pk shield. You can attack a caballed person almost everywhere in the lands, why is it so difficult not to attack two rooms from their altar? Standard fighting is also not going on forever. If you see someone abusing the rule to just hang around near their cabal tell their cabal imm. It will be taken care of swiftly.

Concerning your complaint about lack of proof, Zrothum, usually it does suffice if both the caballed guy AND the attacker himself tell us the same thing.

As I said, not all my complaints relate to my personal situation. Just the rule itself.

What happened in my situation?

I chase a cabaled elder around for over 10 in game hours and never once did he engage someone during this time.

I see him running back to his cabal. Still havent seen his enemy

I find him one room outside of his cabal, alone. His own fault for not using his hiding skill.

I attack

He flees

He tells me to stop interfering (already complaining and whining). I say Im not interfering with anything. Thandaeus logs on and I tell Kronit I wont be attacking him anymore, I have other matters.

I do not pursue Kronit at all

Sure, I attacked him after he stole his warring cabals item. Not my fault he chose to do that instead of fight me. Not my fault he joined a cabal. He shouldn't be babysat, hes a decked cabal ELDER for crying out loud. He didn't even die. Hardly worth a slay and full loot in my opinion.

Yes, I understand I broke a rule that was in place, regardless of whether or not I agree with it. But that is not what we are talking about now. We are talking about the possibility of reforming this rule.

[Chayesh]

I personally don't think someone should be able to sit at their cabal grounds thinking they are protected just because an opposing cabal is online at the time. I believe that if uncabaled Bob were fighting cabaled character Ron and then opposing cabal member Scott logs on that Bob has every right to attack Ron at his cabal until Scott comes around and attempts to take the cabal item itself. Obviously that could mean the Ron dies' date=' or is weakened by Bob and THEN Scott attacks the cabal. But isn't that just part of being in the 50's range cabaled or not?[/quote']

They aren't allowed to do this. Please reread my posts on the rule itself in Divine Mandates. Players doing nothing but loiter in and around their cabal for hours on end have bad things happen to them.

Additionally, the reasons for this rule have been stated and restated ad nauseum. Players have pulled everything from OOC ganging of a cabal member with clannies and the uncabaled to clannies healing the cabal guard to uncabaled people who want to fight attacking the cabal when they can't even take the standard. We have had gangs of clannies grouped with a cabaled to take a standard. Basically, the reason for this rule is the shoddy play of the uncabaled on this most basic issue. The rule is needed and justified, and so is the punishment for breaking it.

Really, it's six of one, half dozen of the other. Why should you not be allowed to PK them when an opposing person is on (since someone suggested that you can't attack when they are)? TWO ROOMS.

[Zrothum]

Additionally, the reasons for this rule have been stated and restated ad nauseum. Players have pulled everything from OOC ganging of a cabal member with clannies and the uncabaled to clannies healing the cabal guard to uncabaled people who want to fight attacking the cabal when they can't even take the standard. We have had gangs of clannies grouped with a cabaled to take a standard. Basically, the reason for this rule is the shoddy play of the uncabaled on this most basic issue. The rule is needed and justified, and so is the punishment for breaking it.

So punish gangs. Never once did the person I was chasing EVER EVER EVER enter a PK with someone. I was alone the whole time. Don't punish a single uncabaled person who isnt even in a vendettad cabald clan for trying to PK. Nothing I did was shotty at all. Nothing.

And Two rooms? Might as well make it one. It's just as bad. In fact, lets just make a non-pk area for wounded or drained cabald people where only cabaled people can fight. Still just as bad.

( i know i sound really sarcastic, sorry....its not personaly i assure you....just debating here. )

[Chayesh]

Additionally, the reasons for this rule have been stated and restated ad nauseum. Players have pulled everything from OOC ganging of a cabal member with clannies and the uncabaled to clannies healing the cabal guard to uncabaled people who want to fight attacking the cabal when they can't even take the standard. We have had gangs of clannies grouped with a cabaled to take a standard. Basically, the reason for this rule is the shoddy play of the uncabaled on this most basic issue. The rule is needed and justified, and so is the punishment for breaking it.

QUOTE]

So punish gangs. Don't punish a single uncabaled person who isnt even in a vendettad cabald clan for trying to PK. Nothing I did was shotty at all. Nothing.

The rule is clearly stated and was made more than just well-known. Ignore it, gang or solo, at your own peril. We will enforce it.

[Zrothum]

Again, with all due respect Chayesh...please. I understand the rule has been made. I understand what the rule says completely. Hell, I even agree with it's purpose to prevent uncabaled people ganging up on cabaled people at opportune moments.

*sigh*

I'm done arguing here unless a new angle or something is said that hasn't already been said. I think I've made my point since all you seem to keep doing is restating the rules, instead of stating exactly why a cabaled person should be shielded from A SINGLE uncabaled person who attacks him when there is no one else in the area. The way the rule is designed now, its doing nothing more than babysitting and making the world safer for cabaled people. When in fact they should have the roughest time of anyone. They are supposed to be the best of the best, especially Elders.

[Chayesh]

Sarcasm is a poor debate tactic and usually earns you negative votes, FYI.

Exactly where would you expect to find a drained potential victim after taking a standard? TA-DUH...their cabal altar. He didn't run there to hide from you as you insinuate. He's taking a standard after already fighting the opposing cabal member and running them off. You sent us a note confirming you did exactly what the rule says. So in your particular case, you confessed to doing exactly what the rules states not to do.

As for the situation, it's not about gangs. It's about people who have no business being in a cabaled fight staying out of it. 16 ROOMS of conditional safety from wanton PK while they do their business. Over 29984 rooms of weapons-free.

[Raargant]

A simple way to put it would be,

'Don't break the damn rules, then complain about the rules not being fair.'

[Zrothum]

As I said, I admit I broke the rule. But, I'm here debating the "correctness" of the rule.

I had been chasing him around long before he attacked the cabal. I can't help it that he's joined a cabal, nor can I help it that he decided to do something else than fight me. It's a dangerous world and he should have to deal with it. Not be protected by some OOC rule that was designed to prevent OOC things from happening. Nothing with what happened to me, or others Im sure, was anything OOC.

I really can't understand how you guys are justifying this. I wish I could see it from your POV...maybe I'm just too upset right now, I dunno.

There was no cabaled fight. Only him vs a cabal guard. He was in the safe and clear when I found him. His own lack of judgement for not camouflaging. Even though I believe, but have no log to prove it, I had already fae fired him before he got there because i had been trying to chase him, as Ive said, alone, for the past however many hours, before he returned hsi standard, and before he was even close to his altar. But since I dont log, I cant prove it and am forced to take it up the rear.

Chayesh, Raargant....let's go have a drink

[Raargant]

Your argument is EXTREMELY discredited by the very fact that, as you admit, you blatantly broke a rule you KNOW is in effect, and THEN you come here to 'change the rule.'

It's like smoking weed in front of a cop, then complaining about the fairness of the laws after you got arrested. It may or may not be debatable, but your actions weaken your credibility considerably.

[Zrothum]

Extremely discredited, perhaps. But it still does not make my points null. Hell, my very history in this MUD should discredit everything I say and do here. But, it does not simply make my points go away.

Quoting the Divine Mandate

"

If its attacking one or two rooms away from the cabal or inside the cabal (assuming the 'strong' guardian is dead), it's interference.

"

You might as well just make a no-pk area. Virigoth said himself no area (an area can be one room, two rooms, or a millon rooms) in this MUD should be "no pk"

[Raargant]

Viri also proposed the creation of a no-PK tavern after he said that, as well as many other things that eventually weren't to be, or were.

And, really, he also said that you were to be perm-banned for the MUD.

Don't try to pull the Viri card. I have a whole deck full of them. Not to mention, fundamentally, it's not 'no pk', it's 'caballed pk'.