A question

[Izzy]

Has anyone ever been able to kill a druid on a regular basis?

 

I have killed some, but its very rare.  I feel like I am getting drilled by a warrior, also recieving spell damage from an invoker, then if I am lucky enough to do anything, then all of a sudden they are clerics that have unlimited mind?

 

Any tips?  Any would be helpful.

[Enethier]

You got me once because I fail at remembering how dancing weapon works.

As for cleric, you actually have a decent handle on it, and do better than the other clerics I have seen fighting druids. Landing blasphemy on me all day... HAX!

Unfortunately, there is no "easy win" button for any class against a druid. That said, there's no "easy win" button for a druid against any class. They hardly have the melee of a warrior, and certainly not the casting of an invoker. They have the melee of a gimped thief and the casting of a 2nd-edition bard.

My 2cents, anyway. Far from the best druid player.

[sarcon]

To kill a druid is on par with killing a good aligned cleric. Remember, druids are clerics of the forest, so if you wanted to kill a druid on a regular basis you would need someone to make a lot of mistakes often, or the other option is to land blasphemy on command and catch them off-guard. The exact same strategies to kill a good aligned cleric is on par will killing a druid. Now, you need to remember 65% of their defenses are reliant on potions, herbs, and scrolls, thus if they are not stocked up they will be hindered greatly if dispelled often. In order for them to replenish their mind, they need time(and a forest), thus if you are fighting them try to stay on them so they can't replenish their mind, which is a hard task if they just gate away. You're always going to find it hard to kill a druid just the same way it will be difficult for a druid to land a killing blow. Druids are unable to lag in most circumstances, but they are not resilient to being laged, so depending on your class, this could be advantages. Druids are designed to be a defensive class and really more of an annoyance than a stone cold killer when being offensive. 

[Enethier]

I always thought that was a bad way to see it. Clerics of the forest. They are perhaps the second best, if not the best, example of a true hybrid. Comparing them to another class is not accurate at all. They're as hard to kill a goodie cleric, and you brought that up, and blasphemy DOES make it almost impossible for them, but at the same time... they're not the same feel. It truly depends on how the druid is playing. Some like to full-caster, others like to full melee (looking at you, you know who you are), and others religiously play hybrid (like you, @sarcon).

The strategies for bringing these archetypes down does vary.

[Izzy]

23 minutes ago, sarcon said:

To kill a druid is on par with killing a good aligned cleric. Remember, druids are clerics of the forest, so if you wanted to kill a druid on a regular basis you would need someone to make a lot of mistakes often, or the other option is to land blasphemy on command and catch them off-guard. The exact same strategies to kill a good aligned cleric is on par will killing a druid. Now, you need to remember 65% of their defenses are reliant on potions, herbs, and scrolls, thus if they are not stocked up they will be hindered greatly if dispelled often. In order for them to replenish their mind, they need time(and a forest), thus if you are fighting them try to stay on them so they can't replenish their mind, which is a hard task if they just gate away. You're always going to find it hard to kill a druid just the same way it will be difficult for a druid to land a killing blow. Druids are unable to lag in most circumstances, but they are not resilient to being laged, so depending on your class, this could be advantages. Druids are designed to be a defensive class and really more of an annoyance than a stone cold killer when being offensive. 

 

I don't know I take some crazy damage from druids.  Though I don't really play lag classes.  Maybe that's why it's difficult.  A dressed druid is just a nightmare.

Seems nearly impossible.  I have tried to dance around to try and eat up their mind, yet it seems endless.

When I hurt them, they are back to full health in no time.

 

Still super fun to fight them though.  Except when I need to run which is usually the case  

[f0xx]

The problem is not in you, @Izzy. Current druids are just ridiculous. They've been able to "survive" so much in their current (read broken) state, only because there was a class more broken than them around i.e. ninjas. Now that ninjas have been dealt with (at least doublesheat ninjas), their problems start to show and people will start to complain. Lets see how long their buff-nerf cycle will last.

[Izzy]

3 minutes ago, f0xx said:

The problem is not in you, @Izzy. Current druids are just ridiculous. They've been able to "survive" so much in their current (read broken) state, only because there was a class more broken than them around i.e. ninjas. Now that ninjas have been dealt with (at least doublesheat ninjas), their problems start to show and people will start to complain. Lets see how long their buff-nerf cycle will last.

 

Well I still think Ninjas are ridiculous as well.  

[sarcon]

2 minutes ago, Izzy said:

Well I still think Ninjas are ridiculous as well.  

They are, they still need another tone down. I've watched ninja's just own the Player base and melt people at will. The day a druid can produce half of what a ninja can produce by all means, nerf away if everyone's afraid of the big bad tree huggers. It's not like you have druids owning the player base, again, for them to get a kill someone needs to make a mistake. Druids have been the same since before time, they got a little touch up with Tsunami and suddenly everyone is waiving the nerf flag. We can probably count on one hand the total amount of successful druids there have been over the past six years. 

[Izzy]

1 minute ago, sarcon said:

They are, they still need another tone down. I've watched ninja's just own the Player base and melt people at will. The day a druid can produce half of what a ninja can produce by all means, nerf away if everyone's afraid of the big bad tree huggers. It's not like you have druids owning the player base, again, for them to get a kill someone needs to make a mistake. Druids have been the same since before time, they got a little touch up with Tsunami and suddenly everyone is waiving the nerf flag. We can probably count on one hand the total amount of successful druids there have been over the past six years. 

 

 

I am not waving any nerf flags, this was not the intention of this post.  I want to know how the hell do I kill one?

 

I don't know if maybe I am missing something?  

[Enethier]

Dirt/flee is usually the tactic in cabal warfare. I would suggest stocking up on a few of the more powerful scrolls so that you have a strong opening round wen the hp starts dropping. They'll be lagged for two rounds from the dirt, and you can follow up with a heavy spell, like path. That would be what I try.

 

[f0xx]

45 minutes ago, sarcon said:

I've watched ninja's just own the Player base and melt people at will.

Well I can say the same about many classes. If you feel (doublesheat) ninjas are (still) OP, feel free to submit logs on prayer, like I have, both on the receiving and giving end.

 

45 minutes ago, sarcon said:

Druids have been the same since before time, they got a little touch up

I am not entirely sure about that. Just as was the case with ninjas at the beginning, druid's defenses and offenses feel much more effective compared to their similar classes, something that is a function of thac0.

That being said, I don't know why thac0's are kept secret.

[Izzy]

3 minutes ago, f0xx said:

Well I can say the same about many classes. If you feel (doublesheat) ninjas are (still) OP, feel free to submit logs on prayer, like I have, both on the receiving and giving end.

 

I am not entirely sure about that. Just as was the case with ninjas at the beginning, druid's defenses and offenses feel much more effective compared to their similar classes, something that is a function of thac0.

That being said, I don't know why thac0's are kept secret.

 

What is thac0?

[Lloth]

To Hit Armor Class Zero

Basically, how much hitroll you need to hit an opponent with an ac of 0, and to a small degree how defensive your own armor class is.

@f0xx, Druid THAC0 wasn't changed as far as I can tell or recall, which is as far back as bard changes. As for why they are kept secret, I'm not sure. I don't even know them all.

[Magick]

3 hours ago, Izzy said:

What is thac0?

This seems to be asked a lot, so let's go into details, though this is largely moot:

To explain it in AD&D terms (as D&D is where, to my knowledge, it originated) means, as Lloth put it, To Hit Armor Class 0 (zero).  Now, back in the day, the scale was sliding from positive to negative 10.  Your mid range, or zero, was full plate armor with a shield (as full plate on its own was 1).  Scale mail (or hide mail + shield) was 5.  Naked was 10.

THAC0 was the dice roll needed to hit AC 0, but not everyone was walking around in full plate, so you would take your THAC0 and subtract your opponents AC from it, and that's the modified number you need to roll on a d20.
EG: If your THAC0 was 20 and you were trying to hit someone in full plate and a shield (0), you'd need to roll a 20.  (20-[0]=20), a 5% success rate.
EG: If your THAC0 was 15 and you were trying to hit someone that was naked (10), you'd need a roll of 5 (15-[10]=5), or a 75% chance to hit.
EG: If your THAC0 was 15 and you were trying to hit someone that had various spells/modifiers to where they were on -5 AC, you'd need a roll of 20 to hit (15-[-5]=20).

Everyone had a THAC0, but how often it decreased was dependent on class:

From this table, you see that everyone starts at 20 and the priests (clerics/druids) go down 2 every 3 levels, the rogues (thief/bard) does 1 every 2, the warriors (fighters, etc) at 1 per level and wizards are shafted at 1 every 3.  Monsters were somewhere between priests and warriors.
This means that by level 11, your priest (14) has a 20% chance to miss a naked person, your warrior automatically hits (critical misses notwithstanding) and your wizard has a 35% failure rate when striking a naked person.  Under normal circumstances.  Modifiers can be added to improve/hinder these numbers.  Hiding in some bushes (cover) can effectively lower your AC (or raise their THAC0 depending on how you wish to look at it, but in the end where the modifier goes is arbitrary so long as it's adjusted correctly.)

So higher THAC0 is bad and higher AC is bad.

Concerning the MUD:

You've got two THAC0 values for the MUD.  Your THAC0_00 value and your THAC0_32 value.  That is, your THAC0 at level 0 and your THAC0 at level 32.  There's a reason level 32 was chosen, but it's irrelevant for purposes of this explanation.
Everyone starts off with a THAC0 of 20.  But like D&D, how quickly it goes down is class dependent.

THAC0_32 for each class bundle is:
Warrior: -10; Thief: -4; Cleric: 2; Mage: 6

This, like the D&D table above, basically shows that the warrior does down almost at a 1:1 (30 point drop over 32 levels) where the mage is pretty close to a 1:2 (14 point drop over 32 levels).  Of course, it doesn't stop here as we've got 50 levels, not 32.  Your THAC0 on your warrior should be closer to -30 and your mage should have a THAC0 of about -5 at level 50.  If you notice, rogues are also more offensive than priests compared to their D&D counterparts, but I digress.

Of course, this is your base range for these class bundles, and is what I believe the ACT_CLASS THAC0s are.  Meaning if you go against a warrior mob, that should be their THAC0, level depending.  Player classes can vary from class to class, but should fall damned close to these values.  IE: Warrior and blademaster THAC0_32 should be about -10 where BMGs and Invokers should be about 6.

What this ultimately means is that you will need more -AC to ensure you don't get hit against a warrior than you do a mage.  This would mean your effective AC is different against different classes.  How exactly the THAC0 translates in terms of in game AC, I honestly don't know, but it shouldn't be too dissimilar to the above.  Being such, your -500 AC would be something like an effective -750 vs a mage but effectively -250 vs a warrior (ballpark figures as again, I don't know what the exact values would be), as the warrior would have a lot easier of a time in trying to hit you than a mage, and thus fewer misses.

 

But deep down inside, we all knew this anyway, even if we weren't told the actual mechanics.  Do we need this information?  Largely no.  You know what some classes should be akin to, so you can estimate where they would fall.  Warriors good, rogues a little less so, mages wave sticks around with their eyes closed.  The actual values are completely arbitrary outside actual to_hit calculations.  Will you actually sit down and calculate your chance of hitting someone vs the different AC values at different levels with various amounts of hitroll?  No, probably not.  So ... do we need to know the actual THAC0_32 values for each class?  No.

 

tl;dr: Melee's such as warriors will have an easier time in hitting you; mages have a rougher time at it.  Everyone else falls in between.  More -AC is good while positive AC should be had only when running back to your corpse.  Get your hitroll up.

[Kyzarius]

Ninjas took a major adjustment.  And not only double sheath.  They went from impossible melee to manageable with good strategy.  I have stood with  both Cenlar and Kotrag on a blm.  Before the change I couldnt.   Still buff, but a major issue was fixed.

The problems I have with druids comes from theie tool kit as a whole.  they have TWO unavoidable damage shields, buff melee, nukes, CC in entangle and forest mist, custom consumables for hp and mana, AND nearly foolproof escapes.  Stacked on some of the best in class, no cabal neccesary, damage reduction spells.

They are just a jack of all trades, master of several.  I personally would like to see their kit modified a bit.  Thorn and Fire shield shouldn't be usable together, make them choose magic or physical.  Not sure what else could be done on the nose though.  

[Zavero]

@Magick, yes and thank the gods they came out with third edition.

[Izzy]

I didn't see anyone digging into your back Erelei.

 

All is well in FL this post went way off topic!

 

WAY OFF

[Erelei]

Sorry @Izzy. Back on topic for this one. New topic created and posts moved.

[Izzy]

Now if anyone has any ideas on how to kill druids.  I would love to hear them

 

[sarcon]

The one thing we are forgetting is 90% of the time, everyone is complaining about something. You get killed? Time to complain about that class. What's that you say? You couldn't land the final blow? or wait, something didn't land? Time to complain about saves and/or your spell/skill set. I'm no saint in this either, there have been many times I cry about murder rounds and wimpy's on a regular basis. However, to say something like "your not listening to the player base", when really in some cases it's only the same 2-3 people crying about something, it's not really an accurate statement.  Unfortunately, we (the players) don't have all the data in front of us, so it's difficult to really understand the immortals/coders point of view. If the IMM's listen to the player base everytime someone decides to cry and wine, they would be re-coding things EVERYDAY.

Maybe we need to fix the way we test things, maybe there needs to be a better process, who knows, but at least we have the IMM's making changes to make things more fun, then just sitting around doing nothing. Your NEVER going to make everyone happy, it's impossible, so you do the best you can. When Ninja's came out, yes it was VERY noticeable how much brambus  steroids juice were pumped into them, then they got tweaked. But to sit here and talk about DRUIDS? is this for real? Yes it's no secret that I have played a druid before, but I was one of the few people that took the time to actually make them competitive. DO you have ANY idea how much upkeep you need for them to be competitive???? Be my guest, go roll one right now and go take on the biggest and badest and see how you do. Show me one Grade A druid player that has more kills that Grade A Ninja or Warrior, or Darknight, Invoker, Ranger, Cleric, Necromancer or so on, I can keep going through every other class, and yet to see a druid with more kills.. pfft, woudn't even compare. Unless that druid has been around for years or something and the person they are being compared to was around for a month. 

[f0xx]

One can really say from afar you are a salesman, sarcon

 

 

 

[Magick]

1 hour ago, sarcon said:

The one thing we are forgetting is 90% of the time, everyone is complaining about something. You get killed? Time to complain about that class. What's that you say? You couldn't land the final blow? or wait, something didn't land? Time to complain about saves and/or your spell/skill set. I'm no saint in this either, there have been many times I cry about murder rounds and wimpy's on a regular basis. However, to say something like "your not listening to the player base", when really in some cases it's only the same 2-3 people crying about something, it's not really an accurate statement.  Unfortunately, we (the players) don't have all the data in front of us, so it's difficult to really understand the immortals/coders point of view. If the IMM's listen to the player base everytime someone decides to cry and wine, they would be re-coding things EVERYDAY.

Maybe we need to fix the way we test things, maybe there needs to be a better process, who knows, but at least we have the IMM's making changes to make things more fun, then just sitting around doing nothing. ...

 

Which is why (multiple) logs should be posted.  This way, if it's broken in any way, it's visible rather than someone just whinging and whining about it.  The way we test may or may not need tweaking, but if things aren't visible, they're not getting fixed.

[FatMike]

14 minutes ago, Magick said:

 

Which is why (multiple) logs should be posted.  This way, if it's broken in any way, it's visible rather than someone just whinging and whining about it.  The way we test may or may not need tweaking, but if things aren't visible, they're not getting fixed.

I posted logs of every ninja fight I had on prayer, did it help? I don't know for sure but I damn sure posted them. Same with necros when they were re-done, posted everything I had. Did it help? Don't know for sure but I damn sure posted them. If you have negative encounters or think something is un-balanced, bring it up so it gets looked at. 

[Anume]

ALL pk logs that are submitted help. It just doesn't autmatically mean that you will see a change right away, bc, a) we have to consider the circumstances and b  we usually need more data than 1 log before coming to a consensus.

example for a: has the player a lot of experience with that class, is he caballed, where there other circumstances that either helped him or mucked you up

example for b: it may just have been incredible luck on the other guy's part

I've helped testing several changes with a mortal of mine and I've died 4 times to different ninjas on different mortals when they just came in, so we, as a staff, already do try to make the testing period shorter. I still think that beta chars only is the way to go ahead for class changes in the future.

[Ulmusdorn]

I think there has been a dynamic shift. 

Druids used to be a very defensive class. With great offence capabilities but this was limited due to yearning and equipment issues with yearning (Gaining equipment with a druid, high level end eq used to be a chore involving multiple gatestones etc). This has been removed and I believe caused a power spike in druids we haven't seen before - basically they are always at peak power.

Brew has also been shifted to aid in this spike. Potions used to be limited to a few abilities and herbs were harder to farm. Now we've moved into a realm where a class has 400HP healing capabilities from standard skills as well as unlimited, incredibly easy to farm, healing potions equivalent to nymph hearts which are highly contested and hard to farm. 

Druids get the ability to weild a very very nice one handed staff with a shield making their defensive capabilities unique and with two 'autodamage' shields it makes them hard to overcome. 

 

Its something we'll look at for sure. However we will always need the Pbases help to see these things. I don't play 24 hours a day 7 days a week. If you log something and show us we all see it. We also need to decide if its just because a. you suck or b. because the skill/spell/song/class/combo is actually overpowered. THIS normally means we need multiple sources, not just one class failing miserably. A sample size of 1 is not a test or proof.

 

 

Addon: I was only gone for 36 hours. WTF happened to you all?