The Direction of this MUD

[Trick]

Druids are incredibly difficult to kill. This used to be their big appeal. They are so resilient and easy to survive with as they have druid gate AND camo. So, even if you manage to find where they landed, they are still able to camo and get away. Druids have always been a tough fight for a lot of classes because of their -ac capabilities, shields, melee output, and now they have ANOTHER huge nuke spell. Druids were given tsunami. Essentially, it is a re-skinned ice storm designed to hit a water vuln. I was told that druids are getting a rework as a whole and they will be designed to be a more elemental/nature oriented class. The only spell added at all was a high damage water spell..  So, maybe the class is still in the limbo of being altered? I don't know.

 

[Erelei]

No changes have been made in awhile, pending disappointment from the entirety of the player base. Any change I make is viewed in its entirety with scrutiny and disapproval. Then we have half-witted posts about how we change things without 'coming to the playerbase' and asking permission first. 

 

So.. no.. druids are on the back burner for awhile until possibly after the holidays. At that point, I'm sure we can all have a discussion about it.

[Izzy]

How did this post go to can I get some tips on how to kill druids to this?

[f0xx]

17 minutes ago, Erelei said:

...pending disappointment from the entirety of the player base. Any change I make is viewed in its entirety with scrutiny and disapproval. Then we have half-witted posts about how we change things without 'coming to the playerbase' and asking permission first. 

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....................

[Trick]

23 minutes ago, Erelei said:

No changes have been made in awhile, pending disappointment from the entirety of the player base. Any change I make is viewed in its entirety with scrutiny and disapproval. Then we have half-witted posts about how we change things without 'coming to the playerbase' and asking permission first. 

 

So.. no.. druids are on the back burner for awhile until possibly after the holidays. At that point, I'm sure we can all have a discussion about it.

The work you put into coding is new and exciting this is appreciated and we all like seeing new things, but almost every single change you have made has been grossly overpowered.

Our change "process":

You make a change to a class or skill. The players say it is overpowered. You deny it. We complain a little more. You say "its working as intended". We post logs. You get an attitude and say how you're tired of having to "prove" or "back-up" what you say by providing the code. We post more logs/bitch about the change. You tone it down and its finally balanced.

This happens every single time you make a change. This is our "process" and its broken. Try something different and maybe you'll get different results. 

I get it. When you start off making changes you get excited and you get a little carried away and give them too much stuff. Which is FINE, but don't get all pissy when we, the players, try to tell you that its not balanced. You defend your work and that's great. We're not attacking you OR the coding. We're just telling you its too much sometimes.

Stop getting butt hurt and listen to your players and see that we're not attacking you or your work, but providing feedback. Passive aggressive comments, little snide remarks, and anything else similar is not helping the situation. Its creating resentment. 

[Erelei]

The majority of the above you've stated is not true. I do not blindly say "working as intended." I do however, require logs.

And I don't just 'change something back' because a player complains about it anymore. You do REALIZE the ENTIRE Immortal staff votes on these changes, to or from or balance wise. NOT just me. Sure, I have a huge say in it, but I completely disagree with your assumption that I make the changes soley on my own and then refuse to "smell the coffee".

 

As for passive aggressive remarks, snide comments, etc, see all of your posts the past several months.

[egreir]

Mmm coffee.

[Trick]

1 minute ago, Erelei said:

The majority of the above you've stated is not true. I do not blindly say "working as intended." I do however, require logs.

And I don't just 'change something back' because a player complains about it anymore. You do REALIZE the ENTIRE Immortal staff votes on these changes, to or from or balance wise. NOT just me. Sure, I have a huge say in it, but I completely disagree with your assumption that I make the changes soley on my own and then refuse to "smell the coffee".

 

As for passive aggressive remarks, snide comments, etc, see all of your posts the past several months.

Okay, lol.

It is true, bro. Its been true since you started coding. From bards to ninjas. And there is evidence in it since every class change has been toned down since we, the players, have bitched/moaned and provided logs. Instead of playing the same song and dance, why don't you, and the rest of the Staff, listen to us instead? You seem to believe that since we don't see the code that we don't know what we're talking about. We are the ones that play the game. We experience your changes first hand. We experience PK first hand. We know, for the most part, what we're talking about it. 

Did you just use the "I'm rubber and you're glue" defense? Lol. You need to grow up, act like an adult, and not take every single negative comment towards your coding as an attack. You're a GOOD coder. You're clearly talented at it, but what you don't have such a firm grasp on is balance and that's what we, the players(read test subjects) are for. We play with what you code and provide information. And sometimes, before something is even fully played with by the players, we say its going to be overpowered and guess what? It is. 

[f0xx]

Erelei....

You treat us like we are some retarded kids that are merely an annoyance to you, while at the same time you are far from perfect.

You think that because you are a coder you are "immune" to criticism?

You really need to grow up and wake up. Even hugely successful games are savagely criticised. Just look at Riot's famous "spaghetti code".

And then we have FL's coders - a long list of people who have who have abused, stolen from, cheated, their playerbase, quietly changed the code for their own benefit, tweaked their own characters, killed players with their IMM characters just because they've killed their mortals.... should I go on?

It is very sad to see how your attitude and behaviour has changed from the time when you were on the other side of the fence...

 

[Erelei]

I'm getting increasingly tired of being told to 'grow up' by you when you don't agree with something I say.

[egreir]

We want change!

We want active coding!

We want more responsive IMMs!

 

WAAIIIIIIIIITTT!! NO! NOT LIKE THAT! STAHP!!!!!!

 

 

we are the worst playerbase alive lol

[Erelei]

Pretty sure everyone hated me then, and still hate me now, @f0xx.

Not sure why you think me having an opinion equates to me being unable to take criticism. Unfortunately you get to only see what you type in prayer, not what everyone else does. It gets frustrating, overly, at times. And when you have people like Trick (whom unfortunately has continued to rip at my backside because he's just that kind of person) I go over the edge and get irritated and post my frustrations.

I'm a damn human too. And I've given you guys no reason to believe that I've EVER done what past coders have done. And I'm pretty certain it was just a couple coders, not all of them, that painted such a bad name for everyone. And it's funny how it ALWAYS comes up when something like this is discussed.

Stop telling me to grow up. The lot of you need to stop resorting to the phrase. I am grown up. I do what I do because I love doing it, but I simply hate it when you guys can't criticize without being total assholes about it (.. and that's not for everyone. Most of the player base isn't. It's just those that have been here for a long time who come off as one and tend to dig under my skin).

[Kyzarius]

59 minutes ago, Erelei said:

Then we have half-witted posts about how we change things without 'coming to the playerbase' and asking permission first. 

ya know.  This is a complete mis interpretation of the issue.

It is things being changed, on the fly.  With no testing on a separate port. 

We spend hours gathering gear, precious time building up.  Then to have something thrown in that just completely destroys everyone with an "oh yeah oops ok its fixed now" while everyone gets plowed and looted and sacced.  Is just bad implementation practices. 

Its not someone asking you to get permission, it is players asking that you follow the steps taken in ANY application before applying changes that have a broad impact on the ENTIRE system.  

I wouldn't let my developers just code in our live web app and change things.  It goes to testing, it is vetted, then to live.

IT just exaggerates the frustration brought on by the immense hour requirement this game has. 

[Erelei]

1 minute ago, Kyzarius said:

ya know.  This is a complete mis interpretation of the issue.

It is things being changed, on the fly.  With no testing on a separate port. 

We spend hours gathering gear, precious time building up.  Then to have something thrown in that just completely destroys everyone with an "oh yeah oops ok its fixed now" while everyone gets plowed and looted and sacced.  Is just bad implementation practices. 

Its not someone asking you to get permission, it is players asking that you follow the steps taken in ANY application before applying changes that have a broad impact on the ENTIRE system.  

I wouldn't let my developers just code in our live web app and change things.  It goes to testing, it is vetted, then to live.

 

The code is tested on a test port.

Then the beta is born into the live port.

That's the point of a beta. Active players to decide if it's OP or not. If you actually want me to create characters and vet them against each other in ever situation I can think of just to test and make sure for certain something isn't OP, fine. Don't expect weekly changes. Don't expect monthly changes. Expect yearly ones.

Seems doable to me.

And you can't tell me we don't fix things on the affected characters. I've even got a command written in for other IMMs (not just for me) that can restore pfiles when crap happens to an earlier date. I foresee this stuff, and I create options out of it. You can't tell me we've ever told ANYONE in the last three years "tough shit, it's fixed now take care."

[Izzy]

Nobody wants to get facerolled.  It is just no fun.  I myself have had to take some serious steps to learning how to play at the new FL.  Me personally, I love some of the changes and think that the ideas behind them were for the best and are for the purpose of helping the mud grow.  That being said, I understand the player's frustrations and I know you are not superman @Erelei.  Sometimes we just want to know that we are being heard, and it's really just that simple.

 

I want to hear, Hey I heard your idea.  I think this is the reason it won't work.

 

Sometimes an explanation is just the simplest solution.

 

I myself am the boss at work.  I am responsible for building whatever it is we are building.  My crew under me will say hey......do you think we can build it this way.

Then I have to respond and say listen, that is a great idea lets give it a try.  Or Sorry bro your idea sucks and this is why it sucks, but dont stop expressing your ideas.

[Kyzarius]

SO, to that statement.  You are saying players tested ninjas on beta port, and didn't think there was a problem? 

[Lloth]

Erelei does actually listen, and in fact many of the changes that have gotten him the most spite have been popular community suggestions. 

 

And no, Kyz, the code itself us tested on a separate port, and when the code works as best as can be seen, it is moved to live for players to beta. Fact of the matter is we just don't have enough hours in our days to code, build, rework, and extensively beta test before porting to live. Even if we did, we wouldn't get near as good if a read on the updates as we do watching players roll with it. 

 

But the expected behavior has become "trash it because it's not perfect right out the gate" or "I don't need to submit logs to tell you to change it now". That is his frustration. 

[Kyzarius]

I think trash it is a bit extreme.  I personally cant believe someone would refuse to submit logs to get something fixed, though you know I spam the hell out of you guys with logs on every issue big and small I run across.  

So the code is checked for consistency, but not for balance then ported over.  Then the players get hit with the balancing side.  

This reminds me of Vibbletick, and then my Lich Rathanous.  I was playing would win a PK, then a shift would happen and suddenly i didn't have lag protection, of which i wasnt told had been changed btw, though thats much better nowadays.  Or couldn't blind petrified enemies.  Just out of the blue, petrify someone have all my stuff ready and oh..it doesnt work.  Or death grasp just suddenly began taking two rounds to cast, discovered after I cast it of course and died from the surprise lag.  With Rathanous I was Nerfed on the fly so much I left the game for 3 years.  First Power word, then defensive nature of some of my spells, then lag protection, removed the blink potion, then red-white staves took a nerf.  

The thing is I don't, and I think I speak for others here too, play this game to be a beta tester.  

Especially when coupled to the amount of time a player must invest to get anywhere.  You spend hours getting that promotion, write tons of journals, scrape by your 12 rp or so a day.  Login and then just get erased by some class that was loaded but hasn't been "balance tested".  Invest 20 hours to get to V, sometimes then as much time as you had to play since the beginning all over again just to get T, and STILL just get destroyed.

Then the players on both ends get frustrated.  The folks like Belderon, or myself as I have been on this end before, get lambasted by the rest of the pbase for being cheaters basically.  While the people getting their butts-kicked get disenchanted and FL falls down another rung on the "what I want to spend my time doing" ladder.  

We build so much into this game designed it seems to create a a sense of ownership between player and character.  But then change the rules with additions and expect the now highly attached player to be happy when their character gets trounced by a mechanic that is broken, and then gets fixed.

Do you guys really consider that a none issue? 

[f0xx]

Are you trying to tell me that you guys actually looked at say.... the initial state of feign? The first bard weapons? The ninjas rework? And thought it was OK?

I can not honestly believe that anyone in his right mind would look at this:

Quote

Object 'instrument trumpet brass felsteel' is type weapon, material felsteel.
Extra flags: glow hum nodrop nouncurse.
Weight is 10, value is 4, level is 50.
Weapon type is two-handed instrument.
Damage is 8d7 (average 32).
Affects hitroll by 10.
Affects damroll by 9.
Affects ac by -45.
Affects damroll by 33.
You have a feeling only a bard can use it.
You determine that a felsteel trumpet won't ever crumble.
Rumor has it you can find it in Limbo.

 

And say.... "ya, that's fine."

Keep in mind that this was actually a new weapon class at that time which noone except bards knew!

[edit] Props to Erelei btw for actually leaving this discussion and open and not censoring it.

[Erelei]

4 minutes ago, f0xx said:

Keep in mind that this was actually a new weapon class at that time which noone except bards knew!

Wrong. Everyone then, and still do, know instrument at 75%. 

[f0xx]

*shrug*

 

I guess the other part of my post is completely irrelevant.

[Erelei]

The other part of your post means that yes, we, made a mistake. We assumed red diamonds would be harder to obtain, like all the "level 10" materials. We assumed, that yes, people wouldn't be able to stockpile hundreds of them while they sat in game for 24/7 doing it.

There's nothing against that. It's great - someone found a loophole (several someones), and when it was brought to our attention, if I remember correctly, we nerfed all current weapons to avg27, and those which had insane +hitroll/damroll were made to re-roll their weapons.

The issue above was fixed. Why are we still bitching about it? What the hell is going on here?

[Fool_Hardy]

Post says this is a discourse on the direction of the game.

I believe I will give a HUGE shout out to the Coders then. I know, unpopular. So What.

Fact. Things are rolling out.

Fact. They do not have to be.

Fiction. No one tests this stuff.

Fact. We as players are crash test dummies, are you angry that the MOTD does not say beta?

Fact. The feedback about the changes comes from players, we make it negative or positive.

^ I wish the Imms would post my prayer concerning bone shatter as an example.

This game is moving in a positive direction, let us guide it forward with compassionate gentle movements instead of jerky motions.

I would also add, that the past couple of days have been druid hater days, someone must be playing one well.

Lets give them credit instead of trying to gimp the class just because your not winning.

[Kyzarius]

22 minutes ago, Erelei said:

The issue above was fixed. Why are we still bitching about it? What the hell is going on here?

 

38 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

I think trash it is a bit extreme.  I personally cant believe someone would refuse to submit logs to get something fixed, though you know I spam the hell out of you guys with logs on every issue big and small I run across.  

So the code is checked for consistency, but not for balance then ported over.  Then the players get hit with the balancing side.  

This reminds me of Vibbletick, and then my Lich Rathanous.  I was playing would win a PK, then a shift would happen and suddenly i didn't have lag protection, of which i wasnt told had been changed btw, though thats much better nowadays.  Or couldn't blind petrified enemies.  Just out of the blue, petrify someone have all my stuff ready and oh..it doesnt work.  Or death grasp just suddenly began taking two rounds to cast, discovered after I cast it of course and died from the surprise lag.  With Rathanous I was Nerfed on the fly so much I left the game for 3 years.  First Power word, then defensive nature of some of my spells, then lag protection, removed the blink potion, then red-white staves took a nerf.  

The thing is I don't, and I think I speak for others here too, play this game to be a beta tester.  

Especially when coupled to the amount of time a player must invest to get anywhere.  You spend hours getting that promotion, write tons of journals, scrape by your 12 rp or so a day.  Login and then just get erased by some class that was loaded but hasn't been "balance tested".  Invest 20 hours to get to V, sometimes then as much time as you had to play since the beginning all over again just to get T, and STILL just get destroyed.

Then the players on both ends get frustrated.  The folks like Belderon, or myself as I have been on this end before, get lambasted by the rest of the pbase for being cheaters basically.  While the people getting their butts-kicked get disenchanted and FL falls down another rung on the "what I want to spend my time doing" ladder.  

We build so much into this game designed it seems to create a a sense of ownership between player and character.  But then change the rules with additions and expect the now highly attached player to be happy when their character gets trounced by a mechanic that is broken, and then gets fixed.

Do you guys really consider that a none issue? 

 

[Erelei]

1 hour ago, Erelei said:

The code is tested on a test port.

Then the beta is born into the live port.

That's the point of a beta. Active players to decide if it's OP or not. If you actually want me to create characters and vet them against each other in ever situation I can think of just to test and make sure for certain something isn't OP, fine. Don't expect weekly changes. Don't expect monthly changes. Expect yearly ones.

Seems doable to me.

And you can't tell me we don't fix things on the affected characters. I've even got a command written in for other IMMs (not just for me) that can restore pfiles when crap happens to an earlier date. I foresee this stuff, and I create options out of it. You can't tell me we've ever told ANYONE in the last three years "tough shit, it's fixed now take care."