My two cents.

[Izzy]

Okay, so here we go.  I have played a few mages now, and its the same results across the board.  Once a melle can get the Elite equipment its very difficult for a mage to compete.  Understand I am speaking about a few toons.  Mages just can't get their AC high enough to mitigate the damage.

Sarcon was able to do well because he was able to get his AC to 700 with all of his brews and potions, and would never fight unless he was fully prepared.  No other REGULAR mage can deal with this.  I have had my AC at around -630.  Still, I am getting owned.  I wield a staff.  Does not matter.  Two handed.  Does no matter.  Use stuff for their vulnerability.  Doesn't matter.  Now I am not getting owned by all.  Just those who know how to get the proper equipment to just destroy.  This is where the power gap is.

Add in dirt kicking and murder rounds.  It's just terrible.  I have been successful with some of my mages.  Though I found it very difficult.  Now I am by no means an expert.  I did improve a lot, but my running skills sucked, chasing skills sucked.

As for Fury.  This ability is just very overpowered.  A stackable ability that stops the caster from concentrating over 70% of the time.  Yes ferals have a vuln.  Yet they seem to be able to deal with that vuln with equipment, thus nullifying the vuln altogether.

Flee you say, run and get rid of it.  Okay you come back to the fight and get it again......what was the point of fleeing in the first place?

I don't know what else to say.  I don't want everyone to think I am complaining.  I watched as some new mages tried to rise up, yet they all seemed to fall.

Just doesn't seem fair for the life of a mage.

 

I have been crushed by the same three characters no matter what setup I use.  Maybe I just suck.

They know who they are, and I would imagine if I ever fought Draug, it would be more of the same.

[Pali]

I think part of the problem is that as eq gets better, melee defense and offense improve, but for mages it is largely defense that improves.  +spell level eq remains pretty rare - both Vaelrasa and Teldrin have had no trouble getting a better combo of AC, saves and hp than my older mages, but neither have managed to get their hands on +spell eq.  A melee's output improves gradually as his eq does, but improving offense as a Mage is very difficult.  I've been toying with the idea of making spell level function more like hit/dam - reduce a bit how much a difference spell level makes in the chance to save, but significantly increase the availability of +spell eq, so that mages have a greater range of possible output.  Right now, the majority of Mage eq is still useful defensively to a melee - AC, hp and saves benefit everybody - but hit/dam boosts are borderline worthless to a Mage.

 

Another part of the issue may be the binary nature of most mal/mental spells: they either work or they don't, and when they don't 4/5 times it quickly feels like a waste of time casting them.  Aff spells don't suffer from this, as they still do damage even when saved against (note Kyz's advice in the Teldrin/Rygar log to ignore most of my spell arsenal and go straight acid blast dps).  Giving variable levels of save success might help here, along the lines of Pillars of Eternity's crit/hit/graze/miss scale.  In Pillars, if a spell crits it has +50% duration/damage, a hit it works normally, a graze it has -50% duration/damage, and a miss it does nothing.  I don't know that we want to make any spells stronger via the crit side, but aff spells already work much like a graze when they are saved against; having a mal or mental spell go through at reduced effectiveness even if saved against would make them far more worthwhile.  This may not translate well for some spells like dispel magic or summon, but a weaker dysentery or plague that doesn't last as long is still worth landing on an enemy to screw regen and do some minor damage, or a sleep spell that only lasts two ticks instead of five so you have far less time to take advantage of it.

[Magick]

The crit bit might make for an interesting mechanic, perhaps given to spells over 100% that don't already have something extra like meteor swarm does.  It would give more of a reason to have (and to add in) items with +% attributes.

[Anume]

The problem with stacking + spellevel eq is that you will have mages land uncurable blinds, directly or via path / ray, as just one example. All the gyvels you can carry in your inventory won't get that cured for you. 

This was the reason why we changed the + spelllevel eq to just one slot in the first place, though it is still possible for some combis to get a + 3 regardless. Now imagine these guys with a + 6. Not fun for anyone fighting them.

[f0xx]

Isn't there a hard cap on +spell levels one can obtain?

I remember it was something like +5 spell levels and you just can't get anymore than that.

[Celerity]

I actually thought it was +2, so I was surprised to see the +3 comment.

[Celerity]

37 minutes ago, Anume said:

The problem with stacking + spellevel eq is that you will have mages land uncurable blinds, directly or via path / ray, as just one example. All the gyvels you can carry in your inventory won't get that cured for you. 

This was the reason why we changed the + spelllevel eq to just one slot in the first place, though it is still possible for some combis to get a + 3 regardless. Now imagine these guys with a + 6. Not fun for anyone fighting them.

You could just set the good success at the current level and scale DOWN from there rather than using the current level as the midpoint.

[Anume]

care to elaborate your comment a bit more Celerity?

[Celerity]

The best possible success is the current spell lvl (compared to the best possible success being 120% spellvl or whatever).

Example: Current player spell level is level 50.

Major (critical) success hits level 50 blind. (spellvl)

Minor success hits level 40 blind. (spellvl*.8)

Graze hits level 10 blind. (spellvl*.2)

 

For this to work well, you should be able to keep casting the spell if it is a minor/graze and possibly upgrade it to a higher tier if that eventually lands (so you aren't stuck with a graze, you can keep trying for the major success).

 

[Izzy]

I just watch myself get drilled.  While my abilities are laughed at.  That is the only frustrating part.  Far too simple to counter a mage with something as simple as dirt kick.  I lose my item.  Its insanely hard to get it back.  I take someone's item.  Dirt kicked.  Watching stupidly while they retrieve that which was so hard for me to take in the first place.  This is broken and nothing anyone says will make me think otherwise.

 

It takes me a long time to take a standard.  I watch Mele take mine in 3 ticks.  Once they have it.  I will most likely die trying to get it back.

 

This does not apply for invokers as they can dish out more damage quickly then they take.  Hence why they are fine.  I dont know enough about Psions, yet they seem to do well as well.

[Zavero]

Did your battlemage have issues taking the standard? I have seen necromancers get it pretty quick as well as invokers. I'm sure communers other than Druid have issues with it. But they are attrition classes, right?

[Izzy]

5 minutes ago, Zavero said:

Did your battlemage have issues taking the standard? I have seen necromancers get it pretty quick as well as invokers. I'm sure communers other than Druid have issues with it. But they are attrition classes, right?

 

He couldnt take a standard in 3 ticks.

 

[Kyzarius]

I have complained quite a bit about the difference between a caster and a melee trying to claim a standard. 

Shaman's for example take 45 min to an hour.  

[Izzy]

Yet when it comes to cabal warfare your standard is the most important item.  I take a standard they can get it with ease.  They take mine, I might die 3 times trying to get it back.

 

Yep thats balance.

[Kyzarius]

So with these tiers would the lower tiers have a better success rate then? 

[tassinvegeta]

1 hour ago, Anume said:

The problem with stacking + spellevel eq is that you will have mages land uncurable blinds, directly or via path / ray, as just one example. All the gyvels you can carry in your inventory won't get that cured for you. 

This was the reason why we changed the + spelllevel eq to just one slot in the first place, though it is still possible for some combis to get a + 3 regardless. Now imagine these guys with a + 6. Not fun for anyone fighting them.

How about raising the level of gyvel/red potions?

[f0xx]

This thread is starting to become a bit ridiculous...

The only problem I see with mages taking the standard is that most of the cabal guards are resistant to magic.

Some mages can take it much faster than melees, others are slower. Such is life.... you can balance their power around how fast they take the standard.

Also the lag from using the services of the cabal healer outside is quite low, it should be on par with temple healers and it shouldn't offer healing services, IMO.

[Kyzarius]

No dude the problem with mages is they spend 3 rounds trying to land an affect, that rarely does take 600 damage in trade.  And when they do land the enemy just smokes something or dirts and flees and its over. 

[Pali]

1 hour ago, Anume said:

The problem with stacking + spellevel eq is that you will have mages land uncurable blinds, directly or via path / ray, as just one example. All the gyvels you can carry in your inventory won't get that cured for you. 

This was the reason why we changed the + spelllevel eq to just one slot in the first place, though it is still possible for some combis to get a + 3 regardless. Now imagine these guys with a + 6. Not fun for anyone fighting them.

That's why I suggested lowering how much of a difference the spell's level makes if more +spell level eq was created - right now I agree it'd be too powerful a buff.

 

16 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

So with these tiers would the lower tiers have a better success rate then? 

The idea is to give the spell as a whole a greater success rate to make casting it worthwhile.  Using Celerity's scale, a crit for full effect probably would still be just as hard to land as the spell is now - maybe even a tiny bit harder.  The hit and graze tiers would be degrees of the target saving the spell.  Someone with very high saves would very rarely take a crit, perhaps even a hit, but spells might still regularly graze them - but someone with zero saves will take crits from most casts, like they would now.  The idea is that sure, the blind you've just landed only lasts for two ticks and is almost guaranteed to be cured by the first dark red potion they quaff - but at least the spell did SOMETHING to the opponent and wasn't a waste of your mana/time/hp.

[Celerity]

29 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

So with these tiers would the lower tiers have a better success rate then? 

Yes and a good way to do it would be to ignore a set of the target's protections provided through equipment. For example:

Let's say that the roll was 40 and needed an 80 to land.

After this failure, we'd do something like modify the target's saves by something like .75 and try again. If the 40 is still a failure, we give it a third shot by lowering them again by .75 and trying again. If the 40 is still a failure, it is a miss.

The net result of this is that vulns are less easily covered by equipment saves (conversely making resistances better as well -- especially in defending against grazes), but covering them still helps considerably.

27 minutes ago, tassinvegeta said:

How about raising the level of gyvel/red potions?

The problem with this is the general problem with power creep. If we raise the power of spells and also raise the power of defenses against those spells, the net result is that people who lack those improved (and thus harder to obtain) defenses get stomped harder than they do now, but the boost is negligible in dealing with the problem that it was designed to combat (spells not landing at all against highly prepped foes) since they have the improved counters.

Therefore, people who are strong will be the same or stronger, and the weak become even weaker. Not really what we want to do.

--

One solution to the cabal guardian problem is stop it from being an in-game fight. If it you made it so that a cabal guardian is defeated by time (say level/10 + 1 ticks), it will balance things out regardless of the mob killing potential of the class. A character enters the room with a cabal guardian, types a command, and an affect is added. If, on the tick, that player is NOT in the room with the guardian, the affect is lost and no item is gained. If the character makes it through the countdown, they get the item. You can add whatever text flavor you want in game to make it interesting.

[f0xx]

3 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

No dude the problem with mages is they spend 3 rounds trying to land an affect, that rarely does take 600 damage in trade.  And when they do land the enemy just smokes something or dirts and flees and its over. 

I wouldn't say it takes your mages that much, Kyz. The last time we fought, you dispelled me 6 times in a roll, all from the first attempt, even though I had some pretty decent wares.

[Kyzarius]

7 minutes ago, f0xx said:

I wouldn't say it takes your mages that much, Kyz. The last time we fought, you dispelled me 6 times in a roll, all from the first attempt, even though I had some pretty decent wares.

You cant use that as the median example, the caste ryour talking about has +3 spell level AND a skill designed to negate saves.  Also is not using "dispel magic" but a buffer version of the spell. 

[f0xx]

I am talking about the other character of yours. The one with the 20-1 PK record

[Kyzarius]

Just now, f0xx said:

I am talking about the other character of yours. The one with the 20-1 PK record

He also ran with a +3 level though and Dispel was the ONLY spell that ever landed for him with any consistency and was always against giants.  And though I am not sure who you played, if it was a giant, you really shouldn't use mental spells as a measure. 

I also used Mysterum defenses and autorescue to a HUGE success.  Without those two factors I would of been melted way before I made ground on quite a few battles. 

Look man using my mages is not a good example, I have been playing mages here for ages.  I sleep at my keyboard and stock consumables and gear.  Know the mechanics inside and out, know every debuff and when to use them.  We cant continue to balance this game based on the extreme circumstances.

In truth the debate in my mind is authored by Pali and now Izzy's recent feedback. 

 

That being said the gradiant spell effects is something.  An accumulative blind though?  Would mages get the equivilant of dirt kick in a blind spell, that would be interesting but has potential to change the game very quickly to work in the opposite way favoring casters.  

[Kyzarius]

I personally would like to see baby steps.  

 

A change in herb smoking to add lag, or make it work like potions in battle with a chance to fail would be a first start imo.