Perhaps it is time to evolve

[Pali]

25 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

OLC - scripting and the triggering system for scripting only goes so far. For really interactive mobs (like you see in quests for example) are actually an incredible amount of coding. Not to mention the inspiration of fresh ideas. We only have so many imms, who are also players. We also only have 1 very very good coder. Others of us can put some stuff together but we can't rely on Erelei to do everything. He is literally one man.

I think you read more of a complaint in that post than I intended (or I wrote it badly, and I'm definitely drunk enough for that to be the case).  Acele expressed concern that people don't seem to notice Val citizens talking to each other - the "problem" in my response was me referencing that perception of Acele's, not that the way the mobs work now is a problem.  Right now, they're great background and atmosphere.  My point was just that if we want people to treat them as more than background and atmosphere, which seemed to be the desire Acele was expressing, they need to be more interactive, not that I have any issue with them as they stand.  As I said at the start of that post, I don't accuse IMMs of laziness - you're not being paid by me to run this game, you're doing me a favor by running it, and it's a continual long-term favor at that.  

 

25 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

I agree @Pali - great insight. How?

If I had a suggestion for increasing the playerbase that had not already been offered, such as a new focus on advertising as Izzy suggested, I'd have given it - but I don't.  Marketing isn't something I've studied, practiced, or have any natural talent at; how most people think and what appeals to them is a mystery to me, as I tend to think the majority of humanity to be either foolish or delusional.  I AM willing to help contribute to an advertising fund if we can get one going; for the first time in a decade I actually am not living paycheck to paycheck, and have some small degree of extra money to burn.

[Ulmusdorn]

3 minutes ago, Pali said:

I think you read more of a complaint in that post than I intended

Other way around. My writing must of seemed like I took it as a complaint  I didn't. 

If we had an army of coders, the possibilities are endless. We don't so my frustration is we have to utilize Ere where he is best placed for impact to help the game. 

The only way to make them more interactive is literally to code mprogs with mtriggers that respond to different situations. Gets a bit much when you're talking about filling a city with them.

[Pali]

2 minutes ago, Ulmusdorn said:

The only way to make them more interactive is literally to code mprogs with mtriggers that respond to different situations. Gets a bit much when you're talking about filling a city with them.

Of this I have no doubt.  Like I said, I don't think there's any problem with them as they are now.  If we had millions of dollars to hire fifty coders to work full time, then I'd expect more of you.  

[Kyzarius]

The reason T is a focus @Ulmusdorn is because the T abilities are the final piece in the cabal set for enhancing your character.

I would also have cabal induction automated too, and qclass, qrace.  Everything going that has what from a player seems to be an arbitrary wait period where you just feel like your spinning your wheels waiting.  These are all also things where 9 timeso out of 10 you never even once interact with an imm.  You just login one day and oh, seems they remembered me. 

And what we are waiting for is the sense of completion as you finish your kit and are more relevant in pvp.  At least for me.   The reason we sit online idly is because we have to get this 20 hour timer ground down to get V.  

The solution is way less of a timer, and some quest/achievement style requirements.  Like WM.  In watcher it could be 5 hours and 10 successful raids.   Syndicate could require heads.  Just some ideas.

E, L, has always been icing to me tbh. Those I think should be left the same in regards to administrator promotions, though I think know the wait time there is also insanely long. 

FL loses because there is to much of a demand on the player to get these things.

[Erelei]

17 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

The reason T is a focus @Ulmusdorn is because the T abilities are the final piece in the cabal set for enhancing your character.

I don't know if I agree here. Even then, that isn't really an excuse to want T automated.

17 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

I would also have cabal induction automated too, and qclass, qrace.  Everything going that has what from a player seems to be an arbitrary wait period where you just feel like your spinning your wheels waiting.  These are all also things where 9 timeso out of 10 you never even once interact with an imm.  You just login one day and oh, seems they remembered me. 

Characters now don't have half the lifetimes they used to because they're already not worth much to those who roll them. Training time is cut in half, ranking time nearly decreased 4 fold, and I see the majority of players with 3-5 characters, sometimes more, and that delete over simple things that someone otherwise who put in the effort wouldn't do.

If they have a qrace, and spent the time getting that, earning it, they're much less likely to delete. I'd say the same goes for ranking and training. The change to make them both faster has been an utter failure, I think, since characters don't mean a damn thing anymore - for the most part.

17 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

And what we are waiting for is the sense of completion as you finish your kit and are more relevant in pvp.  At least for me.   The reason we sit online idly is because we have to get this 20 hour timer ground down to get V.  

If you don't look at it as a timer, and rather, play and enjoy your character while you move up in your cabal ranks, T will come swiftly. Why? Because you'll be RPing, PKing, and actually doing something rather than sitting around 'waiting' for a timer to decrease to 0. Characters get T not for longevity, instead, they usually get T when they make an impact or a name for themselves.

17 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

The solution is way less of a timer, and some quest/achievement style requirements.  Like WM.  In watcher it could be 5 hours and 10 successful raids.   Syndicate could require heads.  Just some ideas.

I don't mind reducing times between cabal ranks, honestly, but I'm absolutely against automating anything past V, or qraces/classes, etc. It's just not plausible.

17 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

E, L, has always been icing to me tbh. Those I think should be left the same in regards to administrator promotions, though I think know the wait time there is also insanely long. 

FL loses because there is to much of a demand on the player to get these things.

Why do you think E and L take forever or insanely long? Again, impact > longevity, usually. Character flaws, well played RP, and of course, original content will give you a boost. Paying attention to one character at a time with no thoughts on promotion time, wait time for qraces/classes, etc, will boost said character forward and make it much easier to attain all of the above. 

[Magick]

I too, am not reading this thread too much, but I blame that on being sick.  I'm sorry if this derails the thread slightly, but I saw this and thought that this deserved another angle.

18 hours ago, Izzy said:

I am not the best RP'r. Yet I feel like I am punished for it.  I am a construction dude.  I can't spell if my life depended on it.   So when I try to write a Good journal, I spend most of my time spell checking.  Looking through googles Dictionary for other words to use.  When I am emoting I am always shy because I don't want to misspell words and look like an idiot.  I do try to do other things well though.  I have a tough time with Smotes.  Emotes and every other type of mote.  I do try though.

Ulm made some very excellent points about character flaws et al.  But the mechanical side ... you're falling into a dangerous trap.  When writing your journals, if you constantly focus on spelling and grammar and opening up that thesaurus, you're going to lose what you want to write, even if it's just in part.  You'll possibly feel unfulfilled.  Like you needed to write more, and that's very likely true.  Because you're writing with a crutch.  You'll be more focused on and spending most of your time correcting your mistakes and possibly getting depressed about your writing skills when you should be focused on the body of work.  Stop that.  It's bad.

Journals and notes, etc:
The first thing you should do is just write.  Ignore the spelling mistakes and the grammatical errors.  Just write.  Doesn't have to be eloquent or pretty or contain several polysyllabic words in each sentence.  Just write.  Doesn't matter if you leave a trail of red behind you a mile long.  Just write.  Get it out.  Get it down.  Don't look back.  Don't add anything to what you've already written.  Don't edit.  Editing at this stage is bad.  Just.  Write.

Once you're done writing (like, really done), now you can go back and re-read your work.  It's at this stage you can do some minor edits, though be careful.  Telling about your abducted mother before you were sold into the Miruvor slave trade is fine.  We just don't want you to end up rewriting the entire thing because you think it doesn't flow very well.  It could flow just fine without you realizing it.  It's also here that you could find you're starting every other sentence with "the" or "likely" or in the case of what I'm writing out in this paragraph, "it".  Whatever.  Here's where you can fix that, not as you go.

Character depending, you can skip one or both of the following steps.

The thesaurus can come out here if your character isn't an ogre with the IQ of salami or a necromancer with the the vocabulary of a 4th grader.  Well, maybe it can, but not to a great extent, I would imagine.  Get rid of the adverb very.  Replace your overly repetitious words, but don't go overboard.  Unless of course your character is completely pretentious.  Then by all means, go overboard.

Now you can go back and spell & grammar check.  Correct those errors.  Run them through various programs.  Get them all done at once.  Again, after you're finished writing.

Format.

Post.

 

Trying with s/p/emotes is fine.  Just one of those things that gets better with practice and grammar and spelling is a bit more lax with.
When you say that you have a tough time with smotes, what I do is try to keep it in mind that it's a super emote.  Put your character's name anywhere in the line and you can make even NPC's talk.  It also helps to know that smote should also work like a pmote.  That is, if you put a character's name in the smote, to that character, it'll show you/your.

As an example:
smote Garmex says to Magick and Izzy, "I've lost my axe, can you help me find it?"
Will return to me:
Garmex says to Magick and Izzy, "I've lost my axe, can you help me find it?"
And to you:
Garmex says to Magick and you, "I've lost my axe, can you help me find it?"

smote "What the hell was that?" Magick asked with alarm in his voice.
smote Garmex says, "Well, Magick.  I see we meet again."

Instead of using an emote directly:
smote Magick looks around and says, "I didn't realize bantha's were in FL."

In the end, it's just another tool.  You don't have to use them and you shouldn't be penalized for not using them.

[Celerity]

@Magick's post should be added to a writing essay!

[Zavero]

@Magick, Yeah. Why not write up an essay? I don't personally write exactly like your suggestion but it's great advice.

[Kyzarius]

An excuse.  So I need an excuse to want to reach goals quicker?

10 hours online becomes idle time because I am usually the only person online for 8 out of 10 of those hours, maybe me and one other person.  There is nothing to actively do for that much time on  FL. 

The amount of time it takes do get something does not equate to value in that character.   This is an odd notion.  If it takes to long it's not worth trying for is more of the default stance I see people taking.

And in the end is it really a problem if people roll something leve it and decide they want to try something else?  I recently have rolled 3 characters.  All while keeping a long term main.  Am I not supposed to do this? 

If the only reason people are playing lomger is because you are making them wait longer then this game is going to just continue to wilt. 

 

[Erelei]

28 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

An excuse.  So I need an excuse to want to reach goals quicker?

I don't think you need an excuse. No, but you seem to think that the things in place are there for the detriment of a character. I don't personally think so.

28 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

10 hours online becomes idle time because I am usually the only person online for 8 out of 10 of those hours, maybe me and one other person.  There is nothing to actively do for that much time on  FL. 

I hate that. I really do. I've stopped playing morts for quite some time because I never have any time to put into them, and a lot of the time, I'm approached to fix something if I do find the free time. I often loathe logging into a character if I ever have one, because I know nothing can come of it. We need more players.

28 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

The amount of time it takes do get something does not equate to value in that character.   This is an odd notion.  If it takes to long it's not worth trying for is more of the default stance I see people taking.

It shouldn't take long, is what I'm trying to say. Longevity isn't a necessary thing, instead, character flaws, depth, and RP are huge factors in getting what you want.

Maybe we should remove the time requirement to apply to a qrace or qclass? Is that what you're talking about? I've given someone a quest race within moments after an application has been published because they were well known, made a name for themselves, and were generally a pleasure to watch.

28 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

And in the end is it really a problem if people roll something leve it and decide they want to try something else?  I recently have rolled 3 characters.  All while keeping a long term main.  Am I not supposed to do this? 

Nothing wrong with this at all. I promise.

I find it in poor taste when someone prefers to play something for 2 hours, get to 50, get into a cabal fairly quickly, and then roll something else and decide to end the first character in a very short time. I'd prefer this doesn't happen with qraces/qclasses. I would love to see them played more and longer.

28 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

If the only reason people are playing lomger is because you are making them wait longer then this game is going to just continue to wilt. 

Not necessarily. A lot of players here play to RP and enjoy themselves as someone else. The majority, if I may be so bold. This doesn't mean we can't turn off the requirement of hours before submission of an APP though, something I'm actually okay with.

[Zavero]

I think you should remove the hours required for application and also the PK requirement. Some folks may never see someone in low PK range and just sitting there at level 15 to 30 waiting for someone is kind of pointless when the game is mostly played at 50. Not to mention its difficult to impossible to get a PK for some classes at 30 as where easy for others.

Edit: They could be spending this time to role play but honestly, some 50s are far too busy in PK and getting things done to sit around at central square where they are vulnerable to attack to do said role play with a level 30.

[Cephirus]

Based upon this thread, I feel like the entire base of players and staff all agree that we see the primary issue with our game is a lack of more people involved in playing it (so more players). I have done some thinking while reading some of your posts and I offer the following for consideration:

1. We all know other people that play games, either they have played FL in the past, or they have had one reason or another to not be interested in playing FL or a text based game in general. I think we as individuals should talk with these people and ask them to give the game a try, and find out what reservations they have. I honestly feel that once we get them to try the game out (@Pali is a prime example of that working, unfortunately he is my greatest success story, the rest have all faded away) they will find a great level of enjoyment. Many of you may go to game stores or in the least, be aware of them in your local area. I think we should work on coming up with a single page advertisement for people to print off that gives some enticing statements about the game and directs them (briefly) on how to get started to learn/play.

2. We are the community that makes up the game, and we all recognize that although there are fluxes of people returning and leaving, it is an overall downtrend that I think many of us feel a bit desperate to change. I know I am. Towards that end, making the game a friendly and fun place to get started is IMO one of the most important aspects to ensure those that do try the game out, want to stay. So towards that end, I suggest that all Qrace/classes and any cabal members that are Trusted or higher rank, be apart of the Academy (not the feeder but the one where you have access to newbie chat).

Additionally I think we should incorporate the option at character creation to specify that you are new to the game, this will then make it so they have access to Newbie chat throughout their life, but they can of course choose to turn it off down the road if they desire.

[Kyzarius]

@Erelei to look at the fundamentals of the issue.  I think we need to address the kind of interactions the current system does or does not create.

Primarily it relies on a perceived interaction with the cabal imm.  Yet you rarely see your Imm.  For better or worse mind you.  Then the imm ends up just promoting people to move things along.  Usually I imagine because they are busy with other things or just have never been online with a particular character.  

I really would like to see the interaction between player and admin go away.  And make promotion reliant on interactions with player and other players and player and the game making it PVE.

Warmaster is a good example.  Where you have to have challenges in order to qualify.  Getting these challenges required you to go out, find people aND either death mark them or duel them.  The cabal just doesn't follow through far enough and take you to T.

Letting the clan masters give a quest available at 50 that then requires you to do something specific  to the lore of cabal your trying to get into which in turn ends in your induction would be awesome.  

You could make these tasks have to involve other players.  So now you are using the cabal system to shoehorn interactions.  So if player A just wants to level up and try something, they still have to contribute to other people's exerience.

[egreir]

So from what I'm reading everyone wants me back.  Cool

[Ulmusdorn]

6 minutes ago, egreir said:

So from what I'm reading everyone wants me back.  Cool

We never wanted you gone

[Izzy]

6 hours ago, Ulmusdorn said:

Out of curiosity - what are you all  - the entire playerbase - waiting for? What do you think will happen? Are you waiting for the immortals to make it all better? Are you waiting for someone else to come along and create something for you? Be it immortal or another player? What can you contribute?

What are we doing -every day as a playerbase - to improve this? Are we doing anything? Are you doing anything? If you choose to do nothing, which is absolutely fine, do not be too harsh to judge the mud if it is not gaining momentum.

 

A very good reality check @Ulmusdorn

[Fool_Hardy]

@Ulmusdorn Some of us are ranking, and RPing, and fighting, and dying, all to provide staff with the information they need to create a better tomorrow.

 

[Erelei]

28 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

Primarily it relies on a perceived interaction with the cabal imm.  Yet you rarely see your Imm.  For better or worse mind you.  Then the imm ends up just promoting people to move things along.  Usually I imagine because they are busy with other things or just have never been online with a particular character.  

Untrue. All IMMs keep an eye on all Cabals and usually keep a going tally. IMMs have several commands that remind other IMMs what this character did during their time online when their cabal IMM was not online, etc. Nine times out of ten, the majority of characters assume you only have to act like you're part of your cabal when you think someone is watching you. You'd be surprised how closely we watch cabal players. Then this usually comes to the forum with a gripe about how 'so and so was promoted before me but inducted after me' crap. 

Quote

I really would like to see the interaction between player and admin go away.  And make promotion reliant on interactions with player and other players and player and the game making it PVE.

Most Cabal IMMs eventually use a proxy through another character to allow them to discuss who should be promoted next, etc. Removing the player vs IMMORTAL interaction would be a DETRIMENT to our game. (.. come on, we're not game administrators, in game. We're Immortals. More to come for this, by the way. I'm re-working our rules and making it very clear what an OOC rule is and what to expect, and what an IC rule is and what to expect).

Quote

Warmaster is a good example.  Where you have to have challenges in order to qualify.  Getting these challenges required you to go out, find people aND either death mark them or duel them.  The cabal just doesn't follow through far enough and take you to T.

Letting the clan masters give a quest available at 50 that then requires you to do something specific  to the lore of cabal your trying to get into which in turn ends in your induction would be awesome.  

You could make these tasks have to involve other players.  So now you are using the cabal system to shoehorn interactions.  So if player A just wants to level up and try something, they still have to contribute to other people's exerience.

What you're proposing is removing the RP part of the game, and creating a Godwars type of game. I don't want that. I'm certain a lot of others would prefer we didn't have that either. You need involvement, you need others to RP, and others to succeed or fail. Taking away all interaction and placing it in quests, and other shit, makes this MUD a PvE mud (which it IS NOT).

[Ulmusdorn]

11 minutes ago, Fool_Hardy said:

@Ulmusdorn Some of us are ranking, and RPing, and fighting, and dying, all to provide staff with the information they need to create a better tomorrow.

?? I'm unsure what this even means? 

Also lets make sure the tone of the thread stays on point. Its not a Us vs You guys thread. Its a how do we all (I'm a player too) make FL better?

[Fool_Hardy]

I have been here for a very very long time.

I have not been in every cabal, I have not played every class.

I have never failed to get into a cabal I set my mind and more importantly my RP on.

I would say this, in most cases, likely 70% of the time, just before I am offered the opportunity to apply, the odd interaction happens.

Now the player in me knows that this stranger contacting me, forcing an interaction if you will, has acted in an odd way. Sorry, but it happens.

This other character may be like me, or unlike me, they usually always approach from a lets get to know each other perspective.

THIS is your chance. Pass or Fail here folks. Its up to you, will you promote your RP, your religion, beliefs, or will you just tell this character you would rather go get gear.

I prefer to think that my immortal leader would approach me as someone else, so that he/she  can know beyond a doubt who my character is and not who they pretend to be.

Maybe its different for you all, but this has been my experience time and again.

[Kyzarius]

 So all this goes on behind the scenes and as a player here for 10 years plus I had no idea? 

Isn't that kind of a problem? 

I mean, this is so silent and hidden that in a decade I still couldn't tell you why it took 2 weeks on this character and 1 week on that one. 

How does that contribute to the game, if the player can't perceive anything being done. 

[Erelei]

4 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

 So all this goes on behind the scenes and as a player here for 10 years plus I had no idea? 

Isn't that kind of a problem? 

How do you see this as a problem? When have we ever discussed what goes on behind the scenes, except with this administration? We're so damn transparent with you guys now it's not funny.

4 minutes ago, Kyzarius said:

I mean, this is so silent and hidden that in a decade I still couldn't tell you why it took 2 weeks on this character and 1 week on that one. 

How does that contribute to the game, if the player can't perceive anything being done. 

This decade, as you call it, weren't the same people as you well know. Stop judging us due to past administrations, please.

And again, regarding a player 'perceiving anything being done', - can you suggest a way that would be completely IC? Or would you prefer we make some OOC check list that confirms "Hey you're being watch, not much longer now!"

Please offer a way for reassurance which allows us to keep it in game. We're working hard, like I said, on separating IC and OOC consequences. Like not going OOC unless you break an OOC rule, for instance (like cheating).

[Zavero]

As a player and not an immortal I think some of my most memorable moments on FL is when I've been interacting with Immortals in the game. That doesn't mean Ulmusdorn or Anume comes down as themselves and role plays, that means just they are emoting, messing with me while hidden, taking over mobs... Etc...

I understand you all have lives, you all have jobs, maybe kids, or school. You have other duties in the mud as well. So what I propose is give a couple immortals the only responsibility of role play and interacting with players on a consistent basis. Not as yourselves necessarily.

That interaction can stimulate role play in a ton of ways. Hell, I would volunteer to do it! I would love to be an immortal and constantly mess with mortals but I may be one of the few.

I'm not saying this game is dependant on this happening. Just that it could enhance it more. Then you wouldn't need to spend hours upon hours making mobs that can do that type of interaction or quests.

[Erelei]

1 minute ago, Zavero said:

As a player and not an immortal I think some of my most memorable moments on FL is when I've been interacting with Immortals in the game. That doesn't mean Ulmusdorn or Anume comes down as themselves and role plays, that means just they are emoting, messing with me while hidden, taking over mobs... Etc...

I understand you all have lives, you all have jobs, maybe kids, or school. You have other duties in the mud as well. So what I propose is give a couple immortals the only responsibility of role play and interacting with players on a consistent basis. Not as yourselves necessarily.

That interaction can stimulate role play in a ton of ways. Hell, I would volunteer to do it! I would love to be an immortal and constantly mess with mortals but I may be one of the few.

I'm not saying this game is dependant on this happening. Just that it could enhance it more. Then you wouldn't need to spend hours upon hours making mobs that can do that type of interaction or quests.

You just summed up levels 52 and 53. They are to remain visible at all times when logged in. Currently, some of them don't necessarily hug onto this rule like they should, and we're working on that.

[Fool_Hardy]

On Topic, evolution:

Some think lack of players is the issue. Researching this currently, not convinced we will draw many new players. I think it would be better to try and draw some of our brothers and sisters home. Contrary to reviews on popular Mud sites, most of our competitor muds, those near us in rankings, have 10-12 max players on line in the last month. We are not that far behind here.

Other evolutions that came to mind; Assign a staff member to the job of adding quests, constantly. New questlines appeal to players, solving puzzles gives us something to do. Create new Guildquests that result not in experience and gold, but in decent pieces of armor. You receive the Cavaliers Breastplate(paladin), the Firemancers Wristband(invoker), the Bloodcovered Warbanner(berserker), ect. With enough different guild quests for a player to equip them selves entirely in guild armor. Not everyone can or wants to be able to cabal outfit.