Saves, mages and melees. Controversial, I know.

[Trick]

Just now, Wade said:

All I see is elites not wanting the gap to close for some reason.

They somehow feel wronged that they had to learn the hard way and the very idea that evening out the playing field will somehow diminish the effort they've put in.

The only thing trying to be changed is making mages more accessible to a larger portion of the playerbase.

I truly am dumbfounded by the attitude of some players.

Implying no one else gets it, thanks for the contribution.

 

Heres an idea, slow the game down so its more of a tactical game. This can be done by slowing down ticks or reducing all damage done/taken by a percentage. It would allow people to make mistakes and try different tactics within the same fight. Sure this would shake up the metagame, but having the meta change is a good thing for games.

 

How would that change anything? The top players, just like in ANY game, will be on top. Why? Because they are better. You think changing code is going to make us worse or make you better? What it does is give us more room to make power plays and do stuff you don't expect instead of solid, tried and true methods of winning. 

I'm the FARTHEST thing from a power gamer. Ask f0xx. Im the most successful PKing newb in the game. I never use protection. I rarely use half the consumables available. But it doesn't matter. I know when to run, when to fight, when to use skills. You don't and that's why you lose. You shake when you type and because of that you lose your opening because instead of bash or ca 'hell you type bsah or ca 'hlle.

PvP in FL IS SIMPLE!!! It's EQ + timing = win. 

Proper equipment with perfect timing equals a win every time. 

There are some classes that can get by with more than the other. Shamans, for example, can do with good timing and bad EQ more than a warrior can. 

[aaa]

That's one hell of a lot of assumptions you just made about me. For the record, my melees actually do just fine.

 

 

[Trick]

And I'm happy for you. I'm glad you do just fine in PK. My point is that when you change FL the assumption is the top PKers aren't going to change too. Of course we are. We are going to adapt the meta. You think giving Chesta more time as a mage is good thing? Riiiiiight. He will decimate every player in this game and you will bitch about it in a new thread.

How many ogre warrior reavers have failed to live up to Anume's standard as Thulgan? It's not the combo, it's the player. How many drow Invokers have choked despite Lejarak going through reaver then temporum and still dominating? How many rangers have been played and done shitty but when I do one it's suddenly overpowered? 

ITS THE PLAYER.

[aaa]

Why wouldn't I want you to adapt to a new meta? Literally all competitive games shift metas and all players adapt, some better than others mind you. 

5 minutes ago, Trick said:

How many drow Invokers have choked despite Lejarak going through reaver then temporum and still dominating?

Terrible example, they literally changed how much ac you could stack after him and the zombie was the mvp.

7 minutes ago, Trick said:

How many rangers have been played and done shitty but when I do one it's suddenly overpowered? 

ITS THE PLAYER.

You sure like to blow your own horn a lot huh? I never had any problems with your ranger, they're by far the easiest class to play.

8 minutes ago, Trick said:

 you will bitch about it in a new thread.

I've got no qualms flying over and bitching about it in person.

[Trick]

14 minutes ago, Wade said:

Why wouldn't I want you to adapt to a new meta? Literally all competitive games shift metas and all players adapt, some better than others mind you. 

Terrible example, they literally changed how much ac you could stack after him and the zombie was the mvp.

You sure like to blow your own horn a lot huh? I never had any problems with your ranger, they're by far the easiest class to play.

I've got no qualms flying over and bitching about it in person.

If there is such an issue with the game then how come there are the elite PKers that don't struggle with these issues? Why is Chesta so good with ALL classss? He is my example of the top mage player, yet he swears up and down that an ogre warrior gladiator is the strongest combo in the game. I clearly believe I am the best ranger player. Why? Because I've had several of them at the top spot on several cabals. Blow my own horn? It's based off of success. Something you clearly don't have. 

Fly out? You're a joke, bud. Threatening to come out and fight me? How about I tell you who I play and you try to beat me there?

Edit: Also, metas in most games are fine to change frequently due to ease of play. It's simple in destiny or call of duty when it's easily accessible and you don't have potentially 100s of hours invested.

[Pali]

...well this is going well...

[Trick]

Just now, Pali said:

...well this is going well...

Probably my fault...

[Celerity]

Who are we telling to harden up, exactly? Is it the original poster? I don't think that makes much sense, if you've followed his posts in the thread.

Are you guys telling it to the people who are making suggestions? If so, are you telling me to harden up?

Is F0xx telling himself to harden up when he makes the wimpy change suggestion?

You are making the critical mistake of thinking that the people who are making suggestions are doing so because they are worse at the game than you AND that you know better than them. That might not be the case. That is a bad combination of assumptions to make.

@Pali is exactly right in that telling people to harden up is very detrimental to the game. Give advice, but never callously mock another player, especially when they are struggling. A very good way to have less players around. That benefits nobody.

Why don't you guys follow your own advice and harden up by stop saying harden up all the time? It doesn't show much strength to beat someone down (especially in the forum, as real people) when they are 'incorrect' or even trying to better the game. Sounds like something a weak-minded person would do. Plus it is a pretty pathetic 'beat down'. It is a lazy one.

The whining about people reaching out to make the game better is much worse than whatever whines may be in the complaints or suggestions.

Come on guys.

If you don't have a contribution to make, harden up and get better at contributing and make some. Stop shutting people down.

 

[Trick]

My point isn't to shut people down. And I don't mean it to come across that way. My point is that when you make changes to the game the top PKers are going to adapt and they are still going to be on top. The cycle of complaining is going to continue. 

No mayyer what you do to the game, the people that win aren't suddenly going to stop winning. It's not that simple, lol. People that aren't as good aren't suddenly going to start doing better because Erlelei makes mages stronger. It just means the good players are going to be even better with the updated classes. 

Thsts my point.

[Celerity]

@Trick

Nobody questions that the best players will adapt and continue to be good.
Nobody questions that there will be future complaints no matter what course is taken.

Both are shoddy reasons to shut down a contribution to the game. If those were good reasons, absolutely no suggestions/changes/contributions would be worth it. Luckily, those aren't reasons to stop any suggestion, so it doesn't really affect anything being discussed here.

[Fool_Hardy]

I do not want to see anything get nerfed. I do want to see the numbers come down. Because survivability is failing.

Since my return, I have ranked and trained a score or more of characters. Looking into a theory of my own.

I can tell you folks, that survivability has gone down. If you are not armored right, you wont survive the fight.

I have been two rounded on every character. Those I manage to fight back with, I can not hit you with weapons, excluding bows.

Its not that dying isn't fun people, I like it I do. I roll with the punches and carry on. No big deal.

But when I make a suggestion, one that I hope allows me to live past the initial lag,(you know the end of round 2), so I can get the flee entered, I get the same response EVERY time.

You need to get better.

Well, DUUHHHH!!!!

However, If I, a veteran player, can not even flee after not hitting you. I think its a sign something is broken.

Never rode a broken bike, but I bet it crashes eventually.

Edit: @ Manual Labor I will look into the handicaps, Cabal Outfit = -200 AC. You consider that viable today? It doesn't seem to let me hit.

[Pali]

52 minutes ago, Trick said:

Probably my fault...

Maybe a little.  That's okay, I still like you.  

 

Just please keep in mind that for a number of us who think an issue exists, we've been around the block here plenty, with our own wins and losses, and that it's not exactly charitable to assume we're coming into the discussion whining just because we've been losing.  I know full well that I'm decent with most classes, crap with some, and fantastic with a couple - one of your rangers is welcome to take a crack at a paladin of mine some time and see how it goes.  If I want to win, I can just play what I'm good with.  My concerns regarding the experience of playing a mage right now are sincere, based on my own experiences and those others have related on the forums - it's not about my ego or needing to win.  My concerns may be misplaced or misguided - it's not like I've spent huge amounts of time playing of late - but that they are shared by others who do suggests to me that the problem is more than something "getting good" is a solution to.

[f0xx]

I keep hearing this talk of people getting two rounded by melees.... could someone post some logs please?

There is a very recent PK LOG out there where a mage with very bad tactics and EQ almost killed one of the strongest melee characters by doing generally nothing at all.

And people come hare and say "Melees too stronk".

And then they get offended when some of the most successful PKers tell them they don't know much about the game...

Ok....

[edit] Here's a quick tip - if you want to improve, spend more time ingame and less on the forums, trying to get other people nerfed and you buffed.

[aaa]

6 minutes ago, f0xx said:

I keep hearing this talk of people getting two rounded by melees.... could someone post some logs please?

There is a very recent PK LOG out there where a mage with very bad tactics and EQ almost killed one of the strongest melee characters by doing generally nothing at all.

 

You reference one log but don't reference the one where the same mage nearly gets 3 rounded.

Besides, the mage had chronoshield in that log, if anything it proves that cutting the damage in half makes it more even. 

[f0xx]

That's the exact problem right there -  in the log vs Kelmi the mage had firestorm up which stopped the murder rounds, and he also had crhonoshield, which is due to it gaining some cabal ranks.

In the other log, vs Kotrag, the mage was inductee and didn't even have firestorm up. 

So you want someone with bad tactics, no cabal ranks, bad EQ to be able to stand up to someone who is holds very high position in his cabal, has good tactics and holds the best EQ possible in the game?

And you think that's a fair request?

[Pali]

37 minutes ago, f0xx said:

[edit] Here's a quick tip - if you want to improve, spend more time ingame and less on the forums, trying to get other people nerfed and you buffed.

What if the situation actually IS that one thing needs to be nerfed, or the other buffed - at least from your own point of view?  How else is one to make their case but to bring it to the forums and see how the community feels about the situation?  Why is talking about something that one thinks is an issue a bad thing?  If you find the conversation tiresome or repetitious, there's nothing forcing you to read it or get involved.  Personally, I tend to think that the fact that this keeps coming up over and over again is in itself a fair bit of evidence that a problem exists - identifying exactly what that problem is, be it class balance, eq creep, or whatever, is I think a worthy goal in itself, and is only going to be done by discussing it.

[f0xx]

51 minutes ago, Pali said:

Why is talking about something that one thinks is an issue a bad thing?

But isn't that exactly what I am doing? I think the issue is skill, and not bad balance.

 

53 minutes ago, Pali said:

If you find the conversation tiresome or repetitious, there's nothing forcing you to read it or get involved.

Ain't that very convenient though? We will claim that mages are weak, and if you don't agree, you can just ignore the discussion.

You know what, you want to prove everyone how op melees are? Roll one. Roll the playerbase. Then come here and tell us how absurd your combo is. Like Celerity has done with Anamus and Kaylia.

Deletion threads make so much impact because you stand behind everything your character has achieved, and noone can doubt your skill, because you have proven it. 

You want me to take the words of Fool Hardy seriously, when he has admitted himself he sucks at PK? Not going to happen.

You want me to take the words of Fridge, the OP of this thread seriously, when he has just 8 posts? Not going to happen.

If you want us to have a discussion about game mechanics, then you have to show me that you actually understand what you are talking about.

 

 

[aaa]

8 minutes ago, f0xx said:

You know what, you want to prove everyone how op melees are? Roll one. Roll the playerbase.

Sure, but for it to be a valid experiment everyone else has to roll a mage.

9 minutes ago, f0xx said:

If you want us to have a discussion about game mechanics, then you have to show me that you actually understand what you are talking about.

They don't make engineers prove they can fly a plane before they're allowed to fix it.

 

How about you roll a mage and show us that they're perfectly balanced? If you truly believe what you claim it shouldn't be a problem. 

[Pali]

3 minutes ago, f0xx said:

But isn't that exactly what I am doing? I think the issue is skill, and not bad balance.

Sure, and that's a valid position to take.  My issue is with how dismissively you treat other positions far more than it is with your own position.

 

7 minutes ago, f0xx said:

Ain't that very convenient though? We will claim that mages are weak, and if you don't agree, you can just ignore the discussion.

I didn't say if you disagree - I said if you find it tiresome or repetitious given that it has come up multiple times recently.  Constructive disagreement is something I welcome - "stop whining, get good" because you're sick of people talking about a subject doesn't help the conversation in any manner.

 

10 minutes ago, f0xx said:

If you want us to have a discussion about game mechanics, then you have to show me that you actually understand what you are talking about.

So Celerity, Kyzarius, Mya and myself don't understand what we're talking about?  We all seem to think that something isn't right regarding mages lately.  Don't get me wrong, we don't seem to be in complete agreement regarding the exact nature of the issue nor how to fix it, but that's the entire point of discussing it - to combine our perspectives and form a more complete picture.

[Fridge]

The initial reason for starting this thread had nothing to do with winning or losing, that's a part of every single game out there. I also understand that the people who are the best pkers now will most probably still be the best pkers if any changes were to take effect. It's not about that. From the start of this post I've mentioned that I believe the biggest problem with the balance is that melees basically aren't melees any more, with the amount of spells available to them they have become hybrids. Before you say that most of the buffs are available to melee and make alike, the effect of these buffs are more useful on a melee as they can more freely equip offensively without having to worry too much about defense. 

Even something as small as the raspberry bush makes a huge difference, that's a lot of gold and time saved by someone who doesn't get the spell in their spell list (for a reason) that they can now spend on other things. I'm not saying that the game was completely balanced when created originally, but there must be a reason why most melee classes don't even have a spell list. 

As for your comment F0xx. Don't judge a book by its cover. Having 8 posts doesn't change the fact that I've been playing on and off for the last 12 years. I'm just not using the same account that I initially used.

[f0xx]

2 minutes ago, Wade said:

How about you roll a mage and show us that they're perfectly balanced? If you truly believe what you claim it shouldn't be a problem. 

I play one currently.

I am fine with the IMMs posting its PK record for you if you wish. 

@Erelei?

[aaa]

17 minutes ago, f0xx said:

I think the issue is skill, and not bad balance.

So, is it balanced now or was it balanced 10 years ago? It can't be both.

[f0xx]

Just now, Wade said:

So, is it balanced now or was it balanced 10 years ago? It can't be both.

Why not? You assume power creep affects melees alone?

It's much easier now for mages to get HP, AC and saves. 

Also, from what I've noticed, spells have indeed been buffed.

So, why not again?

[Trick]

Chesta has done this.. you guys are ignoring it so blatantly.. you say no one can roll the pbase with a mage yet Chesta JUST did it.. Kyzarius JUST did it.. 

Seriously.. lol.

[Pali]

I'm hoping we can all acknowledge one thing at least: FL will never be perfectly balanced.  Perfect balance, in a game this complex, is simply not an attainable goal - it's like trying to accelerate to light speed, you may be able to get closer and closer, but you're never going to get there.  It's to be sought, not achieved - so we shouldn't have any problem admitting that the game isn't perfectly balanced now, it wasn't perfectly balanced then, and it never will be.  Tweaking and improving is not something that is ever going to stop - nor are suggestions for tweaks and improvements.