Warriors, an opening for discussion

[Fool_Hardy]

Upon my first consideration of warriors, I note that almost every race can choose warrior as a class, which all of its own provides diversity and depth to the class. However, I also realize that many of those options are for lack of a better term less than optimal.

When playing a warrior we have every weapon at our disposal, and can hold several proficiencies well over 100%. This also provides us with a diverse set of game plans for various enemies we may encounter. However, a warriors lore eventually leads the character to favor a certain weapon, or wepon combination ultimately reducing the avenues the character believes will end in success.

This is why I believe some say Warriors are bland. Which is not the same as calling them weak.

What can we do to the warrior cast that adds flavor without creating a storm of overpowered warriors to saturate Aabahranian soil? Here are a few Ideas.

1. Update Warriors by funneling them toward their Lore through Paths. Select Wheelhouse. What I mean is that a warrior could select a path, blades(swords and daggers), handles(maces and axes), shafts(spears, polearms, and staffs), or segments(flails and whips). A warrior of a selected path increases his hit and damage with his chosen style of weapon. He also becomes slightly more difficult to disarm when wielding a weapon from his wheel house.

2. Update weapon expertise. All of the warrior subclasses have this skill, it is neither unique nor does it truly make warriors special. Warrior Expertise. As a warrior trained in a specified group of weapons, we begin to learn to utilize our favored weapons in new and exciting ways. This results in some automatic wprogs being applied at random times when using weapons from your wheel house. Taking suggestions here, perhaps a "sweet strike" that causes further trouble for the victim. This should be a small but effective event like blood loss for blades, loss of concentration for handles, ect.

3. Update Shield Mastery once more. A warrior wearing a shield is giving up autodamage from his bow. Why not make shield bash an automatic skill that goes off when the Warrior fails to block with his shield. A somewhat high damage reposit that has a chance to go off in rounds where the warrior could have fired a bow.

4. Reserved for the rest of you to continue.
 

[Celerity]

For me, the major consideration for warriors is that they are already fairly balanced, both for skills and in skill. Warrior skills are 'basic' but diverse, that is, their bash is a consistent normal lag, they disarm normally, they blind normally, trip normally and so forth. They can do everything they need to do in a vanilla way. Compare to something like blademasters or even rangers, who rely on pets to do some of the basics. Furthermore, a player who plays a warrior well tends to do well (given a good build choice), and a player who plays a warrior poorly does poorly.

This balance is a hard position to achieve. Class to class, warriors are very solid. Thus, I hesitate to change things that might upset this balance.

Sure, I have some qualms about how equipment scales on a warrior, but I'd rather deal with that on the equipment side. Sure, I have qualms with how cabal skills (esp. Nexus) stack with warrior builds, but again, I'd rather deal with it on the cabal side.

Warrior balance is not so great on the racial side, but again, I'd rather deal with it mostly on the racial side, not through the warrior skillset. However, shield warriors were a step on the warrior side, esp. tailored for small races. If we are going to consider a change for warriors, I would suggest following that path and looking at single one-handed weapon path/buffs and a (single) two handed weapon specialty (esp. for weapons that can be both one or two handed, not staves or polearms). This will help lessen the gap between giant size and other size warriors. There are other ways to do this as well, of course.

These kinds of considerations will help flesh out warriors where they are imbalanced (races, less than optimal weapon types) and should not buff/weaken the giant-sized dual wielding/staff staple that warriors currently are. The key is to provide an avenue for single one-handeds and non-optimal two-handeds that brings them on par with the current dual wield/etc. power peak without penalizing the current warrior approaches. That means don't nerf any of the current paths, but instead, bring the bad configurations (single sword, single 2hand axe, whatever) up to par in their own way (don't simply make their output like dual wield or their defensiveness like a staff).

This could be done through pathing (which risks a general warrior imbalance) or, at the most basic level, tweaking the warrior lore balance (I suggest this way for now). There several bad lore choices and a couple really good ones and these have yet to be balanced well. The best weapon types should have the worst lores, not the other way around. A shield warrior is by far the worst configuration (lose major melee/fired weapons output), so it should have by far the best lore. I won't comment on the current state of shield warriors, because I honestly don't know how they are now.

Bottom line: Warrior to other class balance is currently good. Warrior internal build balance is questionable (clearly good and bad builds for warriors), so I suggest balancing our current warrior paths/builds to each other (including cabals/races) THEN think about adding more complexity.

[Fool_Hardy]

Well put.

[Fool_Hardy]

22 hours ago, Celerity said:

They can do everything they need to do in a vanilla way.

This is it. This is how I feel about warriors. They can do it all. But its vanilla.

I like your Ideas about balancing around races and cabals, but we will still have failed to add flavor, color, or style.

I hope we can discover a way for warriors to shine in their success and shy away from the Shoot, Bash, Autoblind, Autoflee, Tactic that has become popular in recent months.

Edit: The Warrior Lore is a good place to look to add flavor without disrupting the overall balance of the class.

A few things to consider.

Why are there less Lores than weapons? Sword and Dagger share. Why?

What if we created two possible lores for each weapon?

Some Lores ARE better than others. Some Lores can be applied to other weapons, because they are also offered to that weapon. Backcutter/Powergrip.

Ideas.

Dagger Lore could allow a warrior to act like a hybrid and throw his weapon at his fleeing enemy.

Sword Lore could incorporate a new form of weaponblock when dual wielding swords.

Spear Lore could improve the damage output of a spear launcher.

There are lots of ways to add flavor in the lores, especially if we do not use lore to turn the warrior into a one trick pony.

[Zhurong]

Many classes are 1 trick ponies though. Lol

[Fool_Hardy]

Yes, but many are not.

With a monk, blademaster, or even invoker, if I fail against an opponent, I can come back with a completely different assault that may prove more effective.

You are right, warriors are not the only class with this issue.

Shall we talk about the other three first? Paladin, Healer, Battlemage?

Even a thief can mix it up in his approach.

Warriors, Healers, Paladins, And Battlemages are on the other hand predictable.

[Zoichan]

1 hour ago, Fool_Hardy said:

Sword Lore could incorporate a new form of weaponblock when dual wielding swords.

 

 

[Celerity]

Some thoughts:

1. Warriors aren't really a one trick pony. Because they have all those vanilla utility skills, lores, and weapon flexibility, as well as full gains from consumables, they really have a lot of ways they can vary up the fight. Murder or charge or dirt? On what terrain? With what weapon? Stacking which stats with EQ? What cabal skills boost their passive skillset? A well-played warrior is no more predictable than any other class.

Warriors even have more flexibility than most other classes, I'd say. Other classes are locked into using their active skills/spells, but warriors can play with the stats that feed into their passive skillset, giving them a lot of flexibility. An invoker can't really up their damage output, but a warrior can, as all melees can, and warriors more than other melees. Ranger pets not strong enough? Not much you can do, if you understand my line of thinking.

That is why warriors do so well in so many different matchups - they have the versatility to deal with many kinds of situations. Just not in a flavorful way.

2. Warrior flavor/specialization: Warriors lack flavor exactly for the reason they are versatile...their skillset is generic, not specialized. You can argue that the other melee classes are specialty versions of the warrior, but I think we can do some things with warriors to bring out different styles.

If you want to add flavor, you will need specialization. Since the class is generic, you have to specialize inside the class (as opposed to say a bmg, whose skills are specialized to begin with even without pathing), such as the aforementioned warrior lore. Like I brought up before, it would be nice to have specialization in weapon types (which we have) and wielding types (like shields, one handed single, etc).

For the time being though, I would recommend looking solely at warrior lores. To help fix them, I suggest the following:

- Make the lore ONLY apply to the mastery weapon, so we get rid of the confusion of 'this lore is weak, but can be used by a few different weapon types'.

- Correspond directly to the usefulness of the weapon type for warriors. The sword, exotic, mace, and dagger lores should be significantly more powerful than the whip, staff, axe, and polearm ones. Be very cautious of offense/defense stacking with warrior lores (most offensive weapon should not reduce enemy melee defense for instance).

- Tailored against classes that the weapon is useful against, encouraging warriors to not ALWAYS use their mastery weapon, but to have a boost when it would otherwise be used. Alternatively, the weapon could be inverted to become useful against those it would not have been useful against.

- Warrior cabal weapons (and other best tier weapons) should be taken into account when designing the warrior lore (design the warrior lore as it if were going to be used with a super knight/nexus weapon, for instance).

- Be aware that these weapons may operate at very high proficiencies (fire giants, exotics, expertise/mastery stacking). Again, we don't want people stacking to create an all-purpose best weapon for them (or for 95% of the time). Warriors should rely on different weapons for different situations. Their strength should thus also be a weakness if a warrior stacks everything into one weapon.

The very first step would be defining which warrior lore is an appropriate standard for warrior lores. Which current warrior lore should we balance the rest to? We then need to decide which ones are the 'good' and 'bad' ones, and how good and bad they are compared to our standard. Finally, we can make adjustments.

 

[Chesta6384]

Nothing at all wrong with warriors.  When played right and utilising the proper weapon Vs opponents and proper tactic, they can virtually go toe to toe with any combo given they are sufficiently geared.  They can be one trick ponies when they use the same 'succesful' tactic Vs the same opponents.   Other than that there are many ways to play a warrior like Celerity said.  

[aaa]

I don't think anyone is claiming they're not balanced, just bland. And not everything has to have a complex playstyle, warriors are like checkers and shamans are like chess.  People still play checkers though. 

My only gripe with warriors is most of the time you're just sitting there watching rounds go by, it's a very third person playstyle. 

[f0xx]

20 minutes ago, Wade said:

My only gripe with warriors is most of the time you're just sitting there watching rounds go by.

Aye, that's what a mediocre warrior would do.

[Zhurong]

I played shield warriors when they were powerful and when they were weak. In the beginning, they were definitely a bit too strong, and then they hit a superior low. Maybe with the new changes this will change things. They were really neat. The problem was balancing the damage and affects they do with the damage they give up just by wearing a shield.

[aaa]

@f0xx

[Ulmusdorn]

2 hours ago, f0xx said:

Aye, that's what a mediocre warrior would do.

Play nicely. If you don't have anything positive to add besides alluding to the fact someone is 'mediocre' don't add anything. 

What would be even better is if you could add some of your own strategies or strategies you've seen working. Consider this a friendly  warning.

[Fool_Hardy]

OK. Wade this ones for you bro, hope I am not too off mark.

The watching rounds go by statement, and in truth the whole warriors are bland argument, may have little to do with PK, and be about PVE instead.

But I believe when Wade mentions watching rounds pass, he is speaking of PVE.

Bash does not affect mobs, just damages them. A MOB Mage will curse/plague you literally half a round after you bash them. Damage is not worth lag to self PVE.

Trip is better IMO because of the additional damage done to prone enemies, but has to be timed after ranged round or you lose the bonus.

So warrior PVE is dirt, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, dirt. Bland. Could have tripped some but it really doesn't speed things up much.

 

[Fool_Hardy]

Almost forgot.

Foxx, you are a more than just a veteran player.

You are more than a just knowledgeable player.

You are a credit to the game. I really believe that.

Unfortunately, some of the players may not "get" your sense of humor, and thus they may be offended.

I ask, please continue to join in the discussions, your input has helped me and surely many others on countless occasions.

[aaa]

I had a really long reply written but scrapped it but to sum it up:

-Not talking about pve
-Warriors have the least amount of combat commands available to them
-Less options(commands) = bland to me
-Its okay to be bland

[Kyzarius]

If you don't like the bland class then pick another? 

Warriors are a "beginner" class, want more flavor, go BLM, more of an advanced class. 

[Celerity]

Rangers are more of a beginner class...warriors require more knowledge of equipment, need a stock of consumables and have few options for escape. That said, I agree that warriors are on the 'easier' side of the spectrum considering all classes.

As for number of skills used in/around combat (ignoring prep skills like warcry, sanctuary etc. as everyone roughly evens out (except bmg) through either consumables or class abilities):

Warrior common active skills:

dirt, trip, bash, disarm (3 variants), warrior lore (several variants), berserk, charge

BLM common active skills:

onslaught, critical strike, charge, predict, trip

Paladin common active skills:

charge, cure, flamestrike, wrath, disarm, cure debuff, summon, holy word

Cleric common active skills:

ray/path, dispel, curse, minister/portal, calm, earthquake, cure, cure debuff, spell-turning, divine intervention, isolate

Berserker common active skills:

dirt, trip, bodyslam, cleave (2 variants), berserk, charge, headbutt, haymaker, rage

Monk common active skills:

dirt, trip, air thrash, chii, chii bolt, kick, disarm

Ranger common active skills:

camo, dirt, disarm, thunderstorm, insect swarm, herb, ranger lore

As you can see, warriors are pretty normal in terms of the number of skills they actually use. Like I said before, it isn't that warriors have nothing to do in combat or less skills to use, just that their skills are vanilla and generic...typically the base version. That makes them bland.

[aaa]

7 hours ago, Kyzarius said:

If you don't like the bland class then pick another? 

Warriors are a "beginner" class, want more flavor, go BLM, more of an advanced class. 

Thats the beauty of choice isn't it? I don't play warriors because I find them bland, fool_hardy was asking for opinions of why people think that way, I happen to be one of those people so I'm giving my opinion.

 

2 hours ago, Celerity said:

Warrior common active skills:

dirt, trip, bash, disarm (3 variants), warrior lore (several variants), berserk, charge

 

I don't know who you're fighting but trip and the disarms are out, the only disarm I see landing is offhand. Charge is an opener so I didn't count it, it also has a cooldown to be effective. Berserk lasts a while, you can even use it before engaging so its not really that involved of a skill. That leaves dirt, bash and warrior lores.

Dirt you do once then "wait"
Bash isn't a wise idea to spam, you ideally want to time it so you'd be waiting for the right time.
and bad luck if you picked one of half of the warrior lores that are passive.
 

[Celerity]

Yeah, that is the same with all classes though. You usually only have one, maybe two, skills you should use in any given situation.  I do understand your point though that often your best option is to do nothing and that warriors end up in the situation, along with all other classes that rely on passive mechanics for the actual kill (mostly melees, but sometimes something like a shaman too).