Vhectir vs Kelmi

[Fool_Hardy]

Has something changed?

Healers could not Temporum.

Necro could not Mysterum.

[Kyzarius]

nothing has changed, you can apply of course. 

 

 

[aaa]

4 hours ago, f0xx said:

 

 

Oh my dear.....

I was aware they can't be mysterum, it was a low key jab at the fact he isn't trusted yet and the imm promotion to T system. 

[Ulmusdorn]

7 hours ago, Wade said:

I was aware they can't be mysterum, it was a low key jab at the fact he isn't trusted yet and the imm promotion to T system. 

The Imm system is perfectly fine. I've asked my cabal to do something and nothing has happened for 3 IRL months. 

If you don't want a promotion thats up to you  

[Celerity]

19 hours ago, Ulmusdorn said:

The Imm system is perfectly fine. I've asked my cabal to do something and nothing has happened for 3 IRL months. 

If you don't want a promotion thats up to you  

I'm going to reach out there and just say that if your cabal hasn't done something in three months that you wanted done, something is wrong, and it almost certainly isn't on the players alone. Might I remind you of this thread? If you review that thread, you will remember there is a great deal of legitimate controversy regarding the imm/cabal system.

You brought up a very similar positions of how it was on the players to meet your standards in your cabal in the thread and I countered why that is a very bad position to take in detail. I'm a bit sad to see you making the same argument here again, even subconsciously. Specifically, I would like to point out these parts of my response:

Quote

In a bigger sense, this is also the problem of staff having a defined in-game character. I ran into this problem as staff myself, because often times what would be best for the players and the advancement of game activity might not be in the interests of your own immortal's personality and consistency, not to mention their immortal powers. When I gave directions to members of my cabals, I was entrapped by those directions --- the characters must carry them out, otherwise I could not reward them, since I ordered them as a superior. If I had done so as an advisor, I could have been much more flexible in my handling of the situations that emerged from player RP.

As well as:

Quote

Also, I wouldn't think of it as 'your cabal', at least not in an OOC sense. The characters might be serving you in game, but the players are not. You are serving them as staff. It shouldn't be about measuring how much the character can do for you or the cabal, but more about how you can use the cabal as a tool to keep the game fun for all players of the game -- both those in and outside of your cabal. This is hard to do when your assigned staff duty is to oversee a particular cabal. 

I really suggest you take some time to read that whole thread again if you think that the system is perfect now. Saying that means that you believe everybody in that thread is wrong, community opinions don't matter, or you didn't take the thread seriously enough to remember. None of those answers are good.

[Ulmusdorn]

@Celerity, I respect your opinion a lot more then others but taking a comment out of context and applying it to a thread of a different context is misleading. 

Firstly, you have absolutely no idea what they were asked to do. 

Secondly, you have no idea what my reasoning's, staff reasoning's or player reasoning's could be behind this? 

 

What if you were told that something specific to do with Nature related RP, which I have spent active time RPing with my cabal to achieve, would then allow us to introduce 3 new areas? A new quest line. Multiple new lines of EQ? A new Cabal?  Would that suddenly change your opinion? Would it suddenly be OK that this RP was a product both of the progression of the game and for Elder? (not for a second am I suggesting all or any of these are true.)

However what I am saying, is that taking a single comment with literally 0 context on the matter actually does you no favours. 

In any system are their faults? Absolutely. I 100% stand behind that. However the fact that we are STILL catching people for OOC discretion's says something too.  

[aaa]

I still think the imm controlled cabals suffocate Rp. 

You used to have to send promotion applications, you'd log on and have some notes from cabal mates and you'd learn more about them. 

Cabal relations were much more dynamic and alliances and vendettas didn't feel forced, they were negotiated. 

Cabal elders felt like elders and leaders felt like leaders, these days they're just supervisors at best. 

I still think imms should have veto powers but needing imm approval beforehand would of killed so much potential Rp. 

Remember the squire system? That system was amazing. Even before applying for cabals you'd seek members out and introduce yourself to secure their vote. 

None of this happens anymore. Don't get me started on how the best cabal powers come at T but you can't even get there automatically. 

[Celerity]

First off, thanks for the response, especially in the difficult situation that I put you in.

Second, @Wade the old system wasn't so good either. There was a lot of corruption and trouble, it was just spread out among the playerbase more. It resulted in an oligarchy of OOC cliques which is also not exactly a great position to be in.

Back to @Ulmusdorn: You are correct in that I don't know the circumstances regarding your statement. It could be for the best of intentions or in the most radical situation that has a reasonable route to your three month situation. I don't have any issue with the circumstances or context of your prior post. It could be that the players deserved to be promoted or not, that your judgment was good or not. I don't know why the players have not accomplished what you wanted done in three months or what you wanted done. This doesn't matter much to my position.

My point is that those circumstances don't matter because it is your ideology that bothers me, not the particular situation. Despite good intentions, your post showed me that you still believe that the standard is for you to accomplish things. You, as the cabal leader. You lead the cabal, and the players are rewarded based on how they reach your objectives/standards.

You are still thinking it is about you. Your system is perfectly fine. The problems are with them.

You believe that. There hasn't been philosophical development since that thread. That is what bothers me.

Edit: I want to be clear that I don't point these things out to personally attack you, embarrass, make your life hard, or otherwise cause problems. I do it because I want the game to have the very best staff possible which means helping you become the very best staff possible - which also means pointing out a major deficiency when I see it.

When I am wrong on things (and maybe I am even on this topic), I hope that I am likewise shown (in an appropriate way) why my reasoning was incorrect. In this way, we all help each other improve and everyone wins.

Naturally, when you think I'm wrong, you better be right, because I don't often go down without a fight. Of course, this has been known to spectacularly backfire on me when I actually am wrong.

[Ulmusdorn]

54 minutes ago, Wade said:

I still think the imm controlled cabals suffocate Rp. 

You used to have to send promotion applications, you'd log on and have some notes from cabal mates and you'd learn more about them. 

Cabal relations were much more dynamic and alliances and vendettas didn't feel forced, they were negotiated. 

Cabal elders felt like elders and leaders felt like leaders, these days they're just supervisors at best. 

I still think imms should have veto powers but needing imm approval beforehand would of killed so much potential Rp. 

Remember the squire system? That system was amazing. Even before applying for cabals you'd seek members out and introduce yourself to secure their vote. 

None of this happens anymore. Don't get me started on how the best cabal powers come at T but you can't even get there automatically. 

 

@WadeYou've never been in MY Watcher then. Since I've taken over it is cabal run. But running a cabal isn't just killing a couple of people and getting promotions. 

Normally all of my Elders would be voted in by members of the Cabal. Don't get voted in? Not my problem. However some times on the other side I will promote someone who I think should get it anyway. 

How much you are involved in your cabal is COMPLETELY up to you. The less I have to do? The better as far as I can see it. I would MUCH rather be checking peoples Journals and Forum RP logs (read as encouraging RP) then spoon feeding someone to lead a cabal. You'll find anywhere in life, that leadership isn't granted with a title. People who are promoted at work, in sports teams etc. are normally leading long before the promotion comes. Its not a switch. If you meet the grade, you will be promoted. I don't have time to waste making you 'prove' yourself over and over again. Just do it. (Elder and up promotions require a reasonable logevity IMO)

 

@Celerity You know you're right. However I would emplore you to consider what a cabal is in FL. Its not a random collection of people who decide to meet up and say "What should we do today? Hang out and get stoned?" No. Cabals in FL have DIRECT and CLEAR objectives. Now again I emplore that you'll understand that as cabal 'leaders' I don't give a flying hoot how that objective is achieved. I don't care who you manipulate, join, kill, make subserviant, become subserviant to as long as those objectives are achieved. 

So this isn't about "me" or my ego etc. I actually have lost interest in cabals because of these reasons (perhaps that means the format needs changing? Who knows). and prefer to be the creator of my own destiny .... Or would if I had any time at all to play a mortal.

Cabals with objectives = needs some sort of guiding light (until a mortal leader is found).

[Kyzarius]

I had a wm and a watcher recently.  The wm was inducted on the same day i rolled him and the watcher made T within one day of being V.  Borh from rp, notes, and active pk.  

Knowing ulm in game my guess would be his comments were regarding finding a leader. Not I through E. 

[egreir]

All this debate about imm ran cabals and I'm still here like, 'did f0xx really just say he's one of the better players?

[Zavero]

I just haven't seen an issue with the current system. Then again I don't give a damn about promotions. I just want to role play, explore, pk, and have a good time. 

If you role play and PK when necessary you will get your promotions.

Good log by the way, while all my interactions with Kelmi have been great, he is a powerhouse so I tend to root against him just like Kotrag. 

[Fool_Hardy]

I am horrible at this game.

I fight like a newb.

Dress like a newb.

I just do my best to pretend to be the character I am playing. But "this guys got heart" has gotten me further than most of you hard core fellas get.

I do not remember a time spent waiting for a promotion looking at "you are ready for a cabal promotion", Leader not withstanding. Because there is a time requirement for such a role.

You may be a great at PK, you may have stellar RP, but if your going to delete yourself when that leader skill is not the win button your looking for...Well, its just a wasted promotion.

In the old system there was room for misconduct. Misconduct still occurs and staff currently still stops misconduct, both in Cabal interactions, and OOC issues.

The only argument one could try to use to convince me that Immortals should not run cabals, is the "I live here, and play then, while the Immortal lives there and plays at this time, so I am never seen." Its a legitimate complaint, but that's why we have a channel for communicating to others in our factions regardless of play times. Its called a note system, its not unique to Aabahran, but it is very useful.

The Pen is mightier than any sword in any text based game.