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Slith Berserkers

Fool_Hardy

By Fool_Hardy
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Fool_Hardy Newbie

Fool_Hardy

Posted
Posted

Would one of you mind breaking down for me why this combination is not viable?

It has to be overpowered, we obviously allow underpowered things like gnome warriors.

But how exactly is it Overpowered?

Automatic trip? Most people are flying anyway do they not?

Extra attack? Would this even come close to matching the damage output of a giant sized berserker?

Its a low intelligence, low wisdom race, to think that they would not have adopted a berserker attitude seems ill conceived.

Please tell me what I have missed.

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Anume Explorer

Anume

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Posted

 - serks can get rid of the spell flying very fast usually

- it doesn't match the races rp very well, just as you don't see any drow rangers

- high dex low str races usually are not berserker choices

That said feel free to apply for one. 

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Celerity Newbie

Celerity

Posted
Posted

Same kind of argument against feral berserkers. Feral are a beast race, but they can't be berserkers. Werebeasts can though.

I have mixed feelings about it the more I think about it carefully.

RP-wise, it is more questionable that the beast races have the discipline to be warriors (minos used to not be able to be warriors) than the insanity to be berserkers. Feral have a skill where they jump at your face and claw at you...that is a berserker if you ask me. If a werebeast can fit the archetype, so can feral/slith. I can't find an RP reason to say no.

Balance-wise they (slith + feral zerks) are kind of so-so. They wouldn't be overpowered by any means, certainly. Berserker skills are somewhat strength-weighted, but they wouldn't be any worse off than a current human (who are comparable to slith for strength). Slith autotrip isn't much different from any other allowable slith class/cabal combination with their trip strategies. Feral/slith berserkers wouldn't be overpowered or exceptionally underpowered. I can't find a balance reason to say no.

Since I struggle to think of a reason to say no, outside of some strength/size berserker archetype image (which is already broken by human/werebeast/demihuman/undead zerks), I must say yes.

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Celerity Newbie

Celerity

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Posted

@Lloth Without further explanation, I don't really see it.

I -guess- you mean trample with a +size buff of some sort + haymaker + slith autotrip? Sure, it is decent, but no stronger than any other heavy lag strategy out there? Unreliable, but potentially powerful if everything falls into place against the right foe. Sounds like a good basis of a build to me on par with other builds.

Not sure who you mean by classes who are supposed to be good against zerks though. Based on the above strategy, I'm guessing you must mean classes that are susceptible to lag, so mages/communers or rogues?

Yet you specifically said anger which makes me think skull crusher, so you must have meant communers specifically? Communers (of any cabal) are so insanely powerful against berserkers, even completely lagged (which won't be the case). I don't worry at all about the slith being overpowered in that match up. A well-played berserker has almost no ability to defeat a skilled cleric. It is imbalanced to the point where you could double the zerk's output (pre new diminishing return change, anyways) and they'd still have major trouble with the cleric.

So the slith gains some build advantage against non-passive damage dealers and has a hefty disadvantage against other heavy melees and the plethora of zerk banes. Again, sounds fine to me.

Not perfectly balanced, but on par with the other builds in the game. If the slith zerk didn't have some build strategy something going for it, it'd be horribly underpowered. I promise you that an anger slith zerk barbarian's record won't be amazing. For the same reason that we don't see watcher slith warriors dominating the game.

Worst case is, if it somehow really overpowered (which I seriously doubt), you make trample only apply to manual trips, not auto. Easy fix.

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f0xx Newbie

f0xx

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Posted

I am not following the discussion thoroughly, but I would just like to say how absurd those "haymaker/autotrip OP" arguments sound when you have in mind that you can play a:

1) slith warrior
2) slith blademaster
3) any ranger

in Warder, in Reaver.

[edit] I personally don't like the idea about slith zerkers not because it's OP (which it isn't), but because it doesn't seem to fit their RP. Feral zerker on the other hand seems quite fine, RP wise.

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Lloth Newbie

Lloth

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Posted

Well, because they both have the option of

A- being smaller than giants, making the trip for free after a normally expensive and hard to time skill negligable
or
B- being able to enlarge and trample with trips.

Haymaker is supposed to be a technically difficult skill. Not many people play it that way, sure. They spam haymaker, learn it doesn't work against a skilled opponent most of the time, since it lags you and not them so they just flee, and shortly after drop the zerker. Outside of Nekky, I'm not sure anyone else has even stuck with a zerker for a long period of time in recent years. And the top complaint we get, outside of rage timers, is how haymaker feels useless. But I contend that if you were able to autotrip the same round you drop flight (which falls off very easy), you would have a far larger benefit than you seem to be giving credit for. 1-2 rounds of unsanced combat is nasty against a berserker, especially with the recent change to their hit/dam scaling.

Also, I said Anger because anger is way better than it's given credit for, and no slith in their right mind would want to enter a rage they can't drop or just let fall off at the end of the tick. They just don't have the stats for that approach. Much like slith warriors, they  would do better with the defensive approach to melee, as well, and would really make good use of the sword-and-board style of Anger.

I think where we disagree here is that you have a higher threshold for acceptable power behind a synergy than I do. Synergy for a combo should come from player skill, not game mechanics that overly favor the combination.

None of this is to say that neither feral nor slith can apply to be made into berserkers. It's all just my opinion on why sliths should be the exception, not the rule.

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Celerity Newbie

Celerity

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Posted

I think the point that @f0xx and myself were making was this:

If you look at the current available combinations, there are numerous choices available that capitalize on the exact mechanic you say would be too overpowered. In actual play, the mechanic is sometimes good, but hardly overpowered -- this isn't just a theoretical opinion. It isn't that we have a higher or lower personal threshold, we just use the threshold provided by combinations already in the game and we recognize that this combination is somewhat weaker than those.

-

If you believe that a haymaker leading to an unavoidable trip (quite rare as it requires a successful haymaker, a haymaker to drop flight, AND a trip to hit the next round), what do you think about a thief trap dispelling a mage leading to an unavoidable gag death? How about a dispel/hurricane from a necro? A warder using web? A monk with a charmie? Monk dragon stance in general (similar to praying for a double dragon chakera)? How about a cleric/invoker with a trip/bodyslam/bash charmie?

We aren't talking about a hasted fire warrior/ogre ranger using weapon synergies and loads of unblockable damage. We are talking about an unraged slith berserker fighting an unblind opponent - not exactly a beast in terms of melee output -- you know this because you pointed out they are more suited to sword and shield, not burst damage. Yet, this is clearly a burst damage strategy. This is not great synergy.

Also, as you well know (since you pointed out berserkers are very rare), berserkers aren't exactly considered powerful when using their full skillset, much less only haymaker/trip as a one trick pony. It will be a one trick pony because slith will be otherwise worse than other race choices. You'd pick slith primarily to try that tactic. Same reason people occasionally try slith warders.

Let's be honest, a slith warder ranger will probably do more damage than a slith barbarian berserker going for the haymaker strategy, even without dropping opponent buffs. Plus the ranger can use their entire skillset. An ogre will be all-round (significantly) better than either.

Do you understand in this situation, you'd be using an active skill subcabal (barbarian, so you'd get no other benefit from the subcabal) that has a single strategy (haymaker, autotrip) and is otherwise undeniably weaker than other berserker combinations (which are weak to begin with) in just about every other meaningful way (on top of considering that a berserker autotripping is far weaker than a warrior/ranger/thief/etc auto or multitripping)?

Player skill is important. Build is also important. They aren't really that separate. A lot of player skill is in building the right combo, getting there and maintaining it. Player skill is in using the mechanics available to you. Player skill is knowing what mechanics will work well and what won't.

A player who thinks that they can use slith zerk autotrip/haymaker to dominate the playerbase will very quickly find they aren't nearly as skilled as they think they are.

If you want to argue that slith are more of an ambush predatory RP race and thus don't fit berserk RP, I can go with that. This balance argument? It doesn't hold water with me.

@Lloth Thank you for taking the time to flesh out your response!

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aaa Newbie

aaa

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Zhurong said:

Has no one played a slith warrior warder?

Nope but I fought one when shield warriors just got redone. 

896/971hp 646/720m 427/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (0time) (D)  Sephron yells 'Die! Zerenph, you sorcerous dog!'
You fail to induce Sephron into ecstacy.
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Sephron's shield bash MUTILATES you!
You parry Sephron's attack.
You dodge Sephron's attack.
You block Sephron's attack with your weapon.
Sephron strikes with his tail at your legs.
Luckily your feet aren't on the ground.
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|==-]
(857/971hp 631/720m 427/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (0time) (D)  
You parry Sephron's attack.
You block a green dragon's attack with your weapon.
Sephron's blood loss scratches you.
You sure are BLEEDING!
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron parries your attack.
Sephron parries your attack.
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|==-]
(855/971hp 631/720m 427/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (0time) (D)  
Sephron sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
Sephron's bash decimates you!
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|==-]
(829/971hp 631/720m 427/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (0time) (D)  flee
 
You parry a green dragon's attack.
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Your chest almost caves in!
You are hungry.
Your hunger grazes you.
Sephron's shield bash devastates you!
You block Sephron's attack with your weapon.
Sephron's blood loss scratches you.
You sure are BLEEDING!
Your life drain decimates Sephron!
Your weapon seems to cauterize the wounds.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|=--]
(790/971hp 631/720m 427/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (0time) (D)  
You are hungry.
Your hunger wounds you.
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|=--]
(815/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
You block a green dragon's attack with your weapon.
A green dragon sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
A green dragon's bash hits you.
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Sephron's shield bash decimates you!
You block Sephron's attack with your weapon.
You block Sephron's attack with your weapon.
You manage to stop the deadly flow of blood.
Sephron dodges your attack.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Your life drain devastates Sephron!
Your weapon seems to cauterize the wounds.
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|=--]
(775/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
Sephron utters the words, 'xzbbuio'.
Sticky webs shoot from Sephron's hands covering you.
You can't seem to get back into the air
Sephron's webbing hits you.
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|=--]
(764/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  flee
 
You block a green dragon's attack with your weapon.
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Sephron hooks his shield under your weapon!
Sephron's shield bash devastates you!
You parry Sephron's attack.
Your primary weapon has been pushed aside!
Your primary weapon has been pushed aside!
Your primary weapon has been pushed aside!
Your primary weapon has been pushed aside!
You gain control of your weapon.
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|---]
(734/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
Sephron utters the words, 'xzbbuio'.
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|---]
(734/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
You parry a green dragon's attack.
A green dragon sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
A green dragon's bash mauls you.
You parry Sephron's attack.
Sephron strikes with his tail at your legs.
Sephron trips you and you go down!
Sephron's trip scratches you.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Your life drain devastates Sephron!
Your weapon seems to cauterize the wounds.
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|---]
(710/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
Sephron sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
Sephron's bash decimates you!
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|---]
(685/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
You parry a green dragon's attack.
You block Sephron's attack with your weapon.
You parry Sephron's attack.
You block Sephron's attack with your weapon.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron has a few scratches. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|===|---]
(685/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
You parry a green dragon's attack.
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Sephron's shield bash maims you!
You dodge Sephron's attack.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron dodges your attack.
Your life drain decimates Sephron!
Your weapon seems to cauterize the wounds.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|==-|---]
(649/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
Sephron closes the cabin door south of you.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|==-|---]
(649/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
You parry a green dragon's attack.
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Sephron swings his shield wildly!
Sephron's shield bash LACERATES you!
You dodge Sephron's attack.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|==-|---]
(598/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  open s
flee
 
Sephron sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
Sephron's bash decimates you!
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|=--|---]
(572/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
You dodge a green dragon's attack.
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Sephron hooks his shield under your weapon!
Sephron's shield bash MUTILATES you!
You dodge Sephron's attack.
You dodge Sephron's attack.
You dodge Sephron's attack.
Few tiny roots sprout from the soil then wither on the hard ground.
 
Your primary weapon has been pushed aside!
Your primary weapon has been pushed aside!
Your primary weapon has been pushed aside!
You gain control of your weapon.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|=--|---]
(530/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
You dodge a green dragon's attack.
You dodge Sephron's attack.
You parry Sephron's attack.
Sephron dodges your attack.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron dodges your attack.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|=--|---]
(530/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  You couldn't escape!
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|=--|---]
(530/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  You evade Sephron's bash, causing him to fall flat on his face.
Sephron's bash misses you.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|=--|---]
(530/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
You dodge a green dragon's attack.
A green dragon sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
A green dragon's bash hits you.
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Your wrist is crushed!
Sephron's shield bash MUTILATES you!
You parry Sephron's attack.
Sephron strikes with his tail at your legs.
Sephron trips you and you go down!
Sephron's trip scratches you.
Sephron parries your attack.
Your life drain devastates Sephron!
Your weapon seems to cauterize the wounds.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|---|---]
(477/971hp 637/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (1time) (D)  
You are starving.
Your hunger decimates you!
A winged earth dragon coils about Sephron's shoulders.
You lose your control over a withering scythe adorned with the eye of a fire maggot.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|=--|---]
(497/971hp 643/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  quaff recall
 
You block a green dragon's attack with your weapon.
You dodge Sephron's attack.
You block Sephron's attack with your weapon.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|=--|---]
(497/971hp 643/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  
You block a green dragon's attack with your weapon.
You dodge Sephron's attack.
You block Sephron's attack with your weapon.
You dodge Sephron's attack.
Sephron dodges your attack.
Your life drain devastates Sephron!
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|=--|---]
(497/971hp 643/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  
Sephron sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
Sephron's bash LACERATES you!
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|---|---]
(450/971hp 643/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  
You block a green dragon's attack with your weapon.
You parry Sephron's attack.
Sephron dodges your attack.
Sephron blocks your attack and attempts to strike at the brief opening.
Sephron's riposte mauls you.
Your life drain decimates Sephron!
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|===|---|---]
(428/971hp 643/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  
You block a green dragon's attack with your weapon.
A green dragon sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
A green dragon's bash MUTILATES you!
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Sephron's shield bash DISMEMBERS you!
You dodge Sephron's attack.
You dodge Sephron's attack.
Sephron strikes with his tail at your legs.
Sephron trips you and you go down!
Sephron's trip scratches you.
Your life drain devastates Sephron!
Sephron dodges your attack.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|=--|---|---]
(327/971hp 643/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  
Sephron sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
Sephron's bash decimates you!
You block a green dragon's attack with your weapon.
Sephron's wrath LACERATES you!
You block Sephron's attack with your weapon.
Sephron strikes with his tail at your legs.
Sephron trips you and you go down!
Sephron's trip scratches you.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [===|=--|---|---]
(255/971hp 643/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  
You parry a green dragon's attack.
A green dragon sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
A green dragon's bash LACERATES you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Sephron's shield bash LACERATES you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
You parry Sephron's attack.
You block Sephron's attack with your weapon.
Sephron parries your attack.
Sephron parries your attack.
Sephron dodges your attack.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [==-|---|---|---]
(158/971hp 643/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  
You parry a green dragon's attack.
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Sephron hooks his shield under your weapon!
Sephron disarms you and sends your weapon flying!
Sephron's shield bash DISMEMBERS you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Sephron's wrath LACERATES you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Sephron parries your attack.
Sephron parries your attack.
Sephron blocks your attack with his shield.
Sephron dodges your attack.
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [=--|---|---|---]
(53/971hp 643/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  
Sephron sends you sprawling with a powerful bash!
Sephron's bash LACERATES you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Sephron has some small wounds and bruises. 
 
Zerenph: [---|---|---|---]
(6/971hp 643/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  
You dodge a green dragon's attack.
Sephron strikes you with the edge of his shield.
Sephron swings his shield wildly!
Sephron's shield bash MASSACRES you!
You manage to completely halt your bleeding.
You are too hurt to do anything for a while.
 
(1/971hp 1/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  You are too hurt to do anything.
 
(1/971hp 1/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  Sephron looks at you.
You are too hurt to do anything.
 
(1/971hp 1/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  You are too hurt to do anything.
 
(1/971hp 1/720m 465/465mv) (54540Ntl) (204gold) (2time) (D)  You are too hurt to do anything.
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Celerity Newbie

Celerity

Posted
Posted

Interestingly, he hit you twice with his actual weapon for 7.5% each time. Imagine if you had been haymakered and similarly lagged. You'd still be at 70% health after all those rounds, without sanc, including a vuln weapon, watcher extra damage, and dragon bash damage. :PThat is, if the berserker could hit you twice with the lesser number of attacks they have compared to warriors.

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f0xx Newbie

f0xx

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Lloth said:

Well, because they both have the option of

A- being smaller than giants, making the trip for free after a normally expensive and hard to time skill negligable
or
B- being able to enlarge and trample with trips.

Those two points you are worried about already exist in the game and combos have been rolled around that very concept.

Trample works only with manual input trip commands as far as I know too.

You combo of slith zerker barb (especially anger) will be owned by conventional melees without being able to input a single command.

 

7 hours ago, Zhurong said:

Has no one played a slith warrior warder?

I've played. I've also played:

A slith BLM in warder
A slith BLM in reaver
A slith thief in gladiator (similar concept with dispel traps)

The slith warrior sucked the most out of all. You think webbing + autotrip synergy will be op, until you get laglocked and killed in 8 rounds by a Storm giant Tribunal crusader before you can even cast webbing and without even hitting him once.

The blademasters were strongish, but then I do well with any blademaster combo I've played.

The thief was also strong, but he suffers from the same problem as the warrior.

I have some logs posted in prayer even, if Lloth or Anume want to check them and see how "op" such combo might be.

I personally like the idea of high dex races being more opened to zerkers. No idea why elves/drow can't be them either. There are many examples in the books of those races exploiting their rage/anger tendencies.

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Lloth Newbie

Lloth

Posted
Posted

My concern is that, in order to do this currently, you have to have cabal powers. Slith zerks could do it without cabal powers.

 

I didn't bring up barb for autotrip/trample. That doesn't work. I brought it up because trample on a manual trip, which zerks have, can be strong if used correctly with a race that can use trip so flexibly. It's a concern I would have for allowing slith zerks.

I have never said it would be an OP combo. What I did say is that it could be very unfair, due to a combination of class and race, to other combinations that are designed to excel against berserkers. Particularly the high-dex casters.

They would still have the same issues zerks currently have vs warriors and clerics, but neither of those are classes I was making a case for being negatively impacted by this combo. 

 

Classes that just have a hard time dealing with huge sudden burst, like shamans or to a lesser extent invokes, or very spell-reliant bmgs, would be drastically weakened against zerks simply because of the potential to autotrip during a haymaker round, if the zerks times it right. These are classes that usually do well against zerks.

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mya Newbie

mya

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I played a Devastation Slith Zerk. Not for the auto trip, but for the red-evil dirt kick protection. It was craptastic compared to my FG Dev zerk. Sure they look nice on paper but reality is harsher. My zerks need to be able to burst craploads of damage, and being a human with a tail, just doesn't cut it. Waiting for a 100-1 hay-trip aligment is bad tactics, because you can't control it. In my opinion for the same size the Werewolf zerk is a lot more powerfull due to the extra ofence due to number of attacks.

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